Simon Fox Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 "Simon, yes, US leadership and training in the early war period was substandard (not just in the PTO)" Yea, my point was that it was far more obvious/critical in the jungle since the benefits of mechanisation and firepower were substantially negated. Of course there is a big difference between recognizing such a problem and rectifying it. ".."Fanaticism" factor that can be determined by the scenario designer.." This is an interesting and a pretty good solution to the question I think. Circumstances are very important in determining such behaviour and most nations troops are capable of it in particular circumstances, some perhaps more frequently than others. One can readily think of situations were many troops would fight with added determination regardless of their inherent competence: delaying actions to protect the escape of other units for example. I rather like the idea of the scenario designer having this tool in his arsenal to add "colour" or authenticity (in the historical sense) to a particular scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 Pixman, good call on the fanaticism not being related to experience. "factor that can be determined by the scenario designer"....hmmmm could be a lot of fun to play with giving color to scenarios. It will go nicely with the scenario texts. Unfortunately, competitive play seems to bring out the lame in a lot of people. I see myself having to deploy in areas already on fire facing fanatic volkstrum elites Does CM have a map preview for multiplayer, or is it something your considering? I wouldn't want to see enemy forces but a look at the map before agreeing to a game would be nice. As to weapon repair, as a factor hidden in the inards of the game which when coupled with other factors like experience, training, type of weapon etc sure it wouldn't hurt but if it was taking the place of some obscure vehicle I'd have to say ixnay on the odifiermay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ssnake Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Hi there, I played Panzer General II a lot these days, and although it's not very accurate, it provides and easy interface and it's fun to play. Anyway, I don't want to discuss the qualities of PG2 here, but rather relate to the discussion of personal leadership. I read that you don't simulate that. While I fully share your view concerning national attitudes in General - it just can't be done without leaving someone mad, whatever you do -, I DID like the "war heroes" you eventually got for your troops in PG2. The fun part is, that once you have such an exceptional leader, this unit will be able to do something that usually just can't be done. It is an excellent way to put in legendary and heroic actions - which DID happen from time to time. They're not so likely to always happen in every battle, but you might consider to put that in for campaigns, where (I hope so) you may keep some of your units (the army core, as (again) invented by PG). Having a special combination of virtues, vices, strenghts, and weaknesses for every squad leader would put it too far. But if the tactical level MOST scenarios will feature company level is, then you should equip your platoon leaders with an individual profile. Some guys will always perform better in defensive ops than when having to order an assault, others are charismatic leaders who may lead their troops through the fiercest hail of steel. As a company leader you know at least a bit of the strenghts and weaknesses of your platoon leaders, so you better give them tasks where they perform best. I know that there's a limit to what should be handeled in a simulation. It is, after all, a model of reality which is per definition not reality itself. Some abstractions have to be made - but I think that for the HQ units you should have some individuality. I'm quite sure that CM will be a hell of a game, although I must admit that the soldiers look a bit cheesy. Nevertheless, I'd rather have so-so looks and great gameplay, than the other way round. Remember, those (rare) "hero HQs" will help to let the players fall even deeper in love with their men - or help to let them identify with what they're doing. You care more if you see not a uniform mass of "man-material" but men, and decisions to sacrifice men should not be based on a tactical value alone. We're not machines, but human beings, and even if we decide to sacrifice nothing but bits and bytes, there is some underlying image in our minds that goes together with it. Especially when thinking of the horrific circumstances of WW2, we should just not reduce it to a mere technocratic approach, but support an attitude of care that Fionn and Martin so wonderfully display in their AARs... Just a thought, Ssnake ------------------ PGP key ID: 0xBCD59BA1 I strongly recommend the use of encryption software for e-Mail contacts. Ensuring privacy makes people feel better ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Ssnake, I think you might have misunderstood the exact nature of this thread and why CM doesn't have "national traits" which go above and beyond the "standard" human ones. That is really the only thing that CM is "missing" and, as argued above, missing for a good reason. Morale, experience, and leadership are all simulated in GREAT detail in CM. It is the backbone of the game in fact. The difference is that it is a deep simulation rooted in historical reality, not a surface "feel good" system in a game like Panzer General (1 or 2). What I mean by that is that at the level of simulation CM defies simply lableing. Your units do not respond robotically to a few key game values. There are dozens of variables that determine how well your unit will and will not do in combat. The end result is something FAR more accurate and varried. Heck, they can even disobey your orders if they think it will lead to certain harm or death. All of CM's units want very much to stay alive It was not mentioned here (because it was out of context) that HQs do have traits that can influence the units under them. Some HQs have a greater ability to rally troops, others to spot, while really poor ones might actually provoke units into breaking. But all of this is tempered by the other deeply complex elements going on in the game. No magic bullets here. Absolutely no "core units" in CM. There are several HUGE discussions on this BBS as to why, so other than saying that it is totally unrealistic and irrelevant to this scale (not to mention unplayable...) check out the BBS search function to see the old threads. Don't know what would be a good key word to use. Short of it is that CM's units behave more humanly than any other wargame's ever have. They also behave more realistically (in a military sense) than any wargame before CM. And it is done without have +2 Hero modifiers and other "gamey" abstractions. Again, this is what I mean about the simulation being deep. For a good example, check out Fionn's AARs again and see how many times he talks about guys running away from danger, surrendering under fire BEFORE getting killed, picking more important targets in order to survive, etc. It is all over his reports, though it still doesn't capture even a portion of what is actually going on in the game. Finally, the guys look "cheesy" because nobody in the world has a PC powerfull enough to make them look otherwise (see my recent "Educational..." thread for the detailed explanation). Plus, they look far better in person. Can't say that enough Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 "They look better in person" I have gotten the feeling that the JPEG compression has been hurting your screenshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 JPEG compression SEVERELY hurts the screenshots. It looks much better in person AND the shots look better again when in motion. Everything is less detailed and more blurry in the jpegs. Also, camera shake and other cool things like that simply can't be shown to you all using screenshots but I will tell you that I LOVE putting my camera in the middle of enemy positions when I shell them and just watching the earth shake .. It's a wonderful feeling.. Not so good when the tables are turned though of course Other topic: I would very much support a fanaticism factor in the unit editor section of the scenario designer. (You can change the name of units, change their ammo loadouts etc in the editor... in one game I'm trying to get Martin to play I've sneakily changed the name of his HQ unit to "Martin's losers" ). I'd like to model some of the fights by Green HitlerJugend troops where they fought to the death and I think it'd be interesting for folks to see how fanatical but poor troops compare to combat-savvy veterans. You can see the differences in staying power of the various troops in our current game (i won't say more to avoid giving things away to Martin). ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Uh... no problem Fionn. I PROMISE I am going to shut my ears... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Just a note about the "camera shake" since it hasn't been mentioned... explosions can shake the camera depending on your proximity and the size of the explosion. NOTE: THIS FEATURE CAN BE TURNED OFF IF YOU GET SICK FROM THINGS LIKE DOOM HEAD BOBBING Personally, I turned it off a long time ago for some reason. Until Fionn mentioned it here I totally forgot about it Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ssnake Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Steve, according to your quote >I think you might have misunderstood the > exact nature of this thread and why CM > doesn't have "national traits" which go > above and beyond the "standard" human > ones. That is really the only thing that > CM is "missing" and, as argued above, > missing for a good reason. Sorry for being a bit off-topic here, but I had the impression that it had been discussed here to some extent. Anyway, I'm happy to hear that many features I'd asked for have been taken care of (should've guessed that !) > All of CM's units want very much to stay > alive That's good - many computer controlled units in most other games don't. We've been surprised how much better it felt when we added the urge to survive to our tanks in "Steel Beasts" - it indeed does a HUGE difference. > For a good example, check out Fionn's AARs > again and see how many times he talks > about guys running away from danger, I've read all of his reports, and loved them (good reading). However, I get the feeling that you have very carefully modeled how to make them run away and surrender - but not the other way 'round. OK, just kidding - heroism has always been a rare occurence in mankind's history - more often blatant stupidity in combination with the fool's luck has been mistook for heroism instead > Finally, the guys look "cheesy" because > nobody in the world has a PC powerfull > enough to make them look otherwise Hope I didn't offend you with that one ! Still, their clothing's coloring doesn't seem to fit the landscape, so they look a bit our of place. I know that there's a limitation to polygon numbers, all right. And anyway, I'll order the game, so don't worry...! Bye, Ssnake ------------------ PGP key ID: 0xBCD59BA1 I strongly recommend the use of encryption software for e-Mail contacts. Ensuring privacy makes people feel better ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Certainly individual soldiers from all of the countries involved in WWII displayed acts of heroism, cowardice, and self sacrifice. Maybe the "flavor or national trait" that everone mentions is best represented on a micro scale and not in a general modifier to all of a certain sides forces. Squads or individual soldiers may become fanatic / cowardly / berzerk / etc. This would keep the game from becoming to formulaic (i.e, if I shell and fire on a squad for three minutes, then the enemy will be so surpressed that I can just walk in) Just another thought to think about. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Hi Ssnake, Steal Beasts, eh? I know what you used to drive to work Say hello to Al for me. Been meaning to email him to wish him luck (saw the cdmag.com article). It's a tough world out there! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>more often blatant stupidity in combination with the fool's luck has been mistook for heroism instead <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hehe... well put! There is a silly TV show here and in it a car backfired and they thought it was a gunshot. One friend dove to protect the other's life. Well... it turns out he really dove to save his sandwitch from hitting the floor The whole hero thing is hard to notice in CM, but it certainly is there. Fionn had an entire platoon wiped out in one assault (read Turn 14), except for 2 men from one squad and 2 from the HQ. They managed to finish the job of clearing out the enemy positions by themselves. These guys were Veteran SS and what they did might be taken for granted, but it really was above the call of duty. Fionn's Green Volksgrenadiers, on the other hand, got scattered and mauled because of a tiny US infantry position. While most were breaking and running, or being wiped out, one squad stood firm and managed to get rid of the problem. Another fine example of CM's infantry modeling And yes, I KNOW you understand about polygons (now that I know who you are that is ). The "out of place" thing is going to be hard to fix for winter. US troops generally looked the same in winter, but German troops often had camo parkas (camo or white side out) and sometimes even pants. Problem is that we don't have time to build a new set of winter models (they are painful to make!) and white is a big no-no for gameplay reasons. Deleware Dave, see the above for just some of the reasons not to fear about CM's stuff being "if x happens to y then do z". The way CM is coded up (using HEAVY Fuzzy Logic) this simply does not happen. In general behavior is predicatable in a general way. It should be. But when you get down to the micro level of this platoon doing that you will see that any number of things might happen. Personally, Close Combat 2 was the only game I ever played that infantry was fun to use. CM makes it even more fun because combined arms in CM are more realistic. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixman Posted September 2, 1999 Author Share Posted September 2, 1999 Boy, I cannot believe that I promised not to write any more in this thread!! I've bitten holes in my tongue. ------------------ The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Troop experience has a MASSIVE input into their actions.. I've noticed a massive difference in quality between veterans and green troops and, from a few games I've played with elite paratroops etc I can tell you that an elite platoon will go through a green company like a knife through butter/ Those elite guys just keep going and going like something out of a nightmare. If you're attacked by elite units they won't be stopped until they are inside your MLR in hand to hand fighting and causing massive losses. It's really excellent to watch actually. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Fionn, Stop trolling around these threads your place is your own thread and writing AAR's. Now get back to work, we know from reliable sources that you are dragging your feet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 If you haven't time to build new, white-camo models for the Germans, have you been able to simulate the effects of winter camo? I think I remember reading somewhere that the winter camo stuff was actually pretty scarce, and mainly for use on the East Front (where it's winter, what, 10 months out of 12?) Winter camo got used in Ardennes fighting, I remember that from the book, but how often was it used elsewhere on the West Front? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamse Posted September 3, 1999 Share Posted September 3, 1999 If/when you are doing CM1940 you must have some sort of fanatical level. German forces: They thought they where invisible (true for the moment) with there supreme tactics They had conquered Poland. Well feed, well trained. A lot of home leaves. They had confidence/respect for there COs and in there abilities/training. The "whole" army had a sort of brotherhood/comradery. They think of them self like an ELITE force (with some right) and had full confidence in there training and tactics Being a soldier of the Reich was something high regarded (impressed the ladies and respect from the crowd). MORALE was HIGH. French forces: Underfeed, rarely or no home leaves. The COs despised their soldiers. Poorly trained with a an outdated tactical doctrine and in many cases outdated equipment. Being a soldier in the French army was something too be ashamed of. The MORALE was NOT inversely HIGH. But i think that the marksmanship was somewhat the same(at least not the difference between green and vet). So the problem with Nationality bonus is not a question of setting the troops to green or vet. Björn Elfström Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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