Modern Vehicles

[Eridani]

Today while I was studying for an exam I got kinda a funny thought that might be fun to do as a patch for the later CM games. I think It might be kinda cool to include a few modern tanks in with the mix of WWII stuff. This is not intended at ALL to be realistic, just so you could do some of those what-if battles I know you all have dreamed about,(or maybe its just me, I'm kinda weird that way). Just imagine though, seeing how much damage an M1A1 Abrams could do to a tank column of 20 King Tigers or something like that... Or plinking a halftrack with a 105mm self-propelled howitzer...

Of course none of these would be in any of the included scenarios... but they'd be an option if some do-it-yourselfers wanted to have a little fun.

*shrugs*

just a little though

[Rommel]

It'd be interesting maybe, but 1 m1a1 against 20 king tigers at medium range? Unless it was at extreem long range, where the m1a1 would have a decisive advantage, I'd think that the king tigers would win, sure the m1a1 has superior armor, but unless it was under circumstances that give the m1a1 a complete dominance (night time, long range etc) i'd think the tigers would win.

[Greg Deych]

Interesting, I had a completely differeint reaction to the original situation. Unless Tigers are able to engage M1 from the rear, they are toast. Given that any impact from the 120mm is a kill against a KT and M1A1 is proof against the 88L71(except for rear, I suppose) ... I can't see how it would go any other way.

[Rommel]

sure a m1a1 against 5 king tigers it'd prob win, but come on, 20 king tigers, fireing lets say 500m at a m1a1, the m1a1's loader can only reload so fast, and that combined with the m1a1's gunner is gonna miss on some percentage of shots.

And even if 9 outta 10 shots deflect or fail to penetrate the m1a1, you still will have some shots that would penetrate. Even if they didn't there's a good chance of at least a track shot.

[Brian Rock]

Under certain circumstances a nun with a blowtorch can kill an M1A1, but it's not probable. Unless the Tigers are behind the M1, in optimal terrain, and with surprise on their side they are scrap metal.

Anyone remember Desert Storm? If T72s couldn't scratch an M1A1, a piece of technology built with WWII technology doesn't have a hope.

The M1A1 has superior range, better armor, better guns, better fire control, faster everything. The Tiger crews would have a life expectancy measured in minutes - unless they had the good sense to bail.

[not here]

Some fun with numbers:

M1A1 has a 120mm gun with muzzle velocity of 5500 feet per second (maybe twice as fast as a .30-06 bullet).

M1A1 has Chobham-style mesh armor, and optional reactive armor, and was designed to combat tanks with 5000+ fps muzzle velocities.

Tiger has 88mm gun with muzzle velocity of almost 800fps (about the same as a .45 ACP round). M1A1 also weighs 12 tons more than the Tiger, and probably has rear armor in the thickness vicinity of the 100mm frontal on the Tiger.

M1A1 in addition has thermal sights, computer-stabilized gun, laser range finder, and turret launched smoke grenades (which do not inhibit its own ability to target thermally).

The M1A1's most significant limitation is only 40 sabot rounds on board (I think we can skip over depleted uranium ammo for reasons of economy), but that is not going to be a limitation in this scenario.

Now, the image of 20 nuns with blowtorches at least creates an atmosphere of pure terror. The Tigers are simply beer cans at the target range.

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tiger has 88mm gun with muzzle velocity of almost 800fps (about the same as a .45 ACP round)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think maybe you got your units mixed up here. I bet that's supposed to be 800mps, not fps. Remember, the 88 began as a flak gun and needed a high velocity to get up to high altitude quickly enough to have a chance of hitting a plane moving at a couple hundred knots.

-Bullethead

[W583]

Wow!!!

If you do make the patch...

I got to seee!!!!

A M1 vs a 50 King Tiger = M1 unscrach (maybe!)

50 burning junk

hehe

Even if you put a M-60 in a WW 2 tiger vs m60

the tiger would loose

Anyways

if the patch is really made

I would love to fast move my M1 and during the movment the tank would fire when it is moving

and I would love to see how fast the tank go

have a race on the road hehe

[not here]

Bullethead: They don't call ya that for nothin'- right you are.

773mps muzzle, so 2536 Fps. Now, that's about muzzle velocity range for a .30-06, or a 7.92.

I think we're also talking a 5 pound Tiger projectile, vs. something over 8 for the M1A1. (I know my 105mm was 8 lb. projectile with mv of 4850 fps.) That's a big difference downrange. At 500m in the proposed scenario, I'm still likin' the Abrams....

[Eridani]

It'd be kinda fun to play around with...

It's be REALLY unfair though... one thing I heard no-one mention is gyro-scopicly stabalized turrets... the M1A1 can fire with great accuracy while moving at 50 mph....

I still think it would be fun to play around with... maybe a "modern" patch or addon that would give you a light selection of tanks up through modern times (T 72, T 80, m60, M1A1, M2 Bradley whatever others you can think of)... Maybe not even a free-patch, more of an addon....

I'd buy it

but first I want to get my hands on the game... I'm drooling over here... 2 weeks ago I didn't know combat mission existed, now I'm checking the site way too many times a day to see if just MAYBE its shipped

arrgh...

Hat's of to BTS, I haven't been this into a computer game... well, ever

[Guest Big Time Software]

Yeah, and can you imagine a KT trying to align its gun on a 50mph target at, say, 1000m or less? Not a HOPE of it. The M1A1 could just drive in circles and pick off the KTs one at a time. Even *IF* the KT hit the M1A1, it would have to hit it in just the right critical spot to do any damage. Remember that its gun was just starting to be matched by enemy armor towards the VERY end of the war, so 50+ hitec years later, that Chobham armor would laugh at a direct hit. Sill... if given the choice of owning a KT or a M1A1 for personal use, the choice is VERY clear -> the KT of course

Steve

[Neutral Party]

... now if it had been 100 jeeps

[not here]

"...given the choice of owning a KT or a M1A1 for personal use, the choice is VERY clear..."

Let's see, M1A1 gets something like 1.83 gallons to the mile. It does have some body styling, but it's hard on bridges and tough to park. And at 4.3 mil or more (depending on option package) they're a little spendy. Plus no classic plates.

Fahrvergnuegen rules.

[W583]

I think I am goin to use my programming skill to make this patch.... hopefully

send me the game first !!!

[MOS was 71331]

Didn't Avalon Hill offer a "Final Countdown" scenario for their Carrier game? You know, the modern USS Nimitz against the entire Japanese attack force at Pearl Harbor. I certainly enjoyed that movie.

If you see the "Final Countdown," watch out for the two sailors playing Squad Leader on one of the mess tables.

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Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968)

[Stephen Smith]

" the M1A1

can fire with great accuracy while moving at 50 mph...."

I suspect there are two myths expressed in this sentence.

First, that the M1 can fire at great accuracy at 50 mph.

Second that the M1 can move at 50 MPH.

I suspect there is some propaganda/army recruiting exaggarations that cause these two perceptions of the M1 to remain (remember the commercial that showed an M1 going airborne as it drove over a bump). I was an M1A1 tank platoon leader in Germany in the late 1980's, and was on a brigade staff during the Gulf War where I was (oddly enough) able to drive the M1A1 across the flat, sandy desert as fast as it could go.

On training ranges, we would fire on the move, ONLY while driving along a flat, gravel road, at about 15-20 MPH.

And out in the desert, I had the opportunity to drive the tank as fast as it would go, across sandy, almost billiard table flat, terrain. It maxed out at about 25-30 MPH.

I don't know for sure that the above are the maximum limits of the M1A1'S performance, specifically 1) in training, we were undoubtedly under more safety constraints than would apply during war-I am sure that the M1 can track at FASTER than 15 mph, and can track along terrain BUMPIER than a gravel road. But whether it could track at 50 MPH cross country, I seriously doubt it, and 2) it may have been that the engine of the tank I was in had a governor (which I have read about, but never experienced as a PLatoon leader while on active duty) or was underpowered for some reason. Perhaps (even more than likely) the tanks could go faster than 30 mph. But I doubt that they could go 50 mph under any but very controlled circumstances (and even then the tracks would probably be torn up, and extensive damage to the tank would result). As for firing at 50 mph, I doubt it. It may be possible, it may be possible on a blacktop parking lot, but in general, I doubt it.

Steve

[Fionn]

I'm pretty sure there's an engine governor on M1s which kicks in at 48 to 54 kph ( roughly 30 mph)...

As for going cross-country at 50 mph.. Well, if you're the TC I'll just sign you up for dialuysis in 15 years right now . Those kidneys are gonna be shattered after a few years of that kind of tanking

The 15 to 20 mph maximum practical speed for cross-travel hasn't changed all that much since tanks were first built. Any faster and the crew just starts getting "all shook up" so I hear. Any faster than that and WW2 crews started suffering broken bones and cuts etc

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[W583]

Hey I remember whats that game call

'' Carrier at war''

that is the game where they put in jet with ww2 the us to fight japan fleet

cool game

[Trooper]

>Anyone remember Desert Storm? If T72s >couldn't scratch an M1A1, a piece of >technology built with WWII technology >doesn't have a hope.

You'd be surprised how much WWII technology is still in service.. Look at the effect the Israeli Shermans had in their wars for an example of how not to underrate them. (Admittely pre-Abrams) Molotov cocktails are WWII or before, and are quite effective against Abrams! (I know, I'm stretching the point)

Two Abrams were knocked out due to enemy action in Desert Storm (As opposed to double-figures of Abrams knocked out by the US). One was a T-72, the other a BMP-2. Both from the rear. One was a total loss to fire, the other repairable. One TC was blown out of the turret, and, apparently a bit miffed, commandeered a tank that came to aid. (He outranked the other TC). If memory serves (I don't have the book in front of me) there were no fatalities amongst the tank's crewmen, though there were some injuries. Source: Crusade (Author forgotten), a reassuringly non-americentric book on DS.

Anyway, I wouldn't be overly surprised if the 88mm couldn't penetrate the side of Abrams from the information I've read.

As for max speed, a story oft-related to me was that of the prototype M1s tearing around in the desert at over the speed limit. MPs gave chase, but nobody in the tanks noticed until they pulled over at base. Cue some very dusty and very angry MPs... I don't know offhand what the listed max speed of Abrams is (I had thought it was 50mph but anyway), but I'd always add something to officially admitted figures! (See the US Navy's intereference with Harpoon for example... "Where did you get those speed values for the CVNs? Please reduce them to 32kts.." That said, I wouldn't want to tear across country at that speed!

BTW, for what its worth, assuming the 20 King Tigers were mechanically sound, the ground was Western Europe and would hold their weight, and were crewed by good troops with a sensible commander, my money's on the Tigers.

DWH

Manic Moran