How will multi storey buildings be modeled ?

[Thomm]

Dear Big Time Software Team !

Can you tell me how you intend to model houses, street-fighting and house-to-house fighting ? How much abstraction will be involved ? Will it be possible to shoot at the top armour of tanks from the top floors of multi-storey buildings ? Can you hide in the basement during an artillery barrage ? Will it be possible to place a HMG on the top floor and a infantry squad at the ground floor ?

Thanks for your answer !

Thomm

[Guest Big Time Software]

Houses come in several types: wood and stone, 1 and 2 level. Yes you can shoot at vehicle tops from buildings. However, most personal AT weapons (panzerfausts and bazookas) can penetrate most vehicles without a height advantage (certainly on the sides and rear) so this is not really an important difference, even though it might seem like it. Although grenades do tend to find a "home" inside open-top vehicles.

You can't "hide in the basement". CM scenarios are too short to represent soldiers hunkering down under a long barrage. Artillery strikes in CM are powerful, but relatively short.

Yes it's possible to put an HMG on the top floor and an infantry squad on the bottom.

Charles

[Thomm]

Great features !!

But what exactly will happen to my HMG on the top floor if a enemy squad enters the ground floor ? Will there be instant contact (like in CC) ? Or, to be more precise: Will they first fight the infantry squad on the ground floor and THEN the HMG team ?

You said that there are two level houses: Yet I have seen four level houses on some screen-shots. Is there anything between ground floor and top floor, then ?

Please be aware that strongpoints like bunkers and houses draw a lot of attention and should be modelled very carefully, because everybody will watch very closely when his/her men take a building !

Regards, Thomm

P.S.: On Public Relations: Compared to the sreen-shots on the previews the shots on your homepage appear outdated ! You should add more and newer ones, in my opinion ! I would also be *VERY* cool to see a small picture of every tank you have finished in the vehicles list ! Especially since the quality of your tank models can compete with any 1st person simulation ! Give us some eye-candy, 'cause you have got it !!

[This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 05-25-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But what exactly will happen to my HMG on the top floor if a enemy squad enters the ground floor ? Will there be instant contact (like in CC) ? Or, to be more precise: Will they first fight the infantry squad on the ground floor and THEN the HMG team ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As with most things in CM, there is no "this is always the way it happens" answer here. Usually your squad will engage the enemy squad on the bottom floor first, because they can damage it more easily and it probably represents a greater threat. But there are occasional exceptions (maybe the HMG upstairs is gunning the heck out of your valuable truck convoy so your attacking squad is really desperate to destroy the HMG immediately). Your squad may decide to fire on the HMG first (though targeting a different floor is less effective).

HMGs also won't be able to fire effectively directly down (or up) stairs. So an assaulting squad down below will have a nice advantage if it can manage to get into the building.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You said that there are two level houses: Yet I have seen four level houses on some screen-shots. Is there anything between ground floor and top floor, then ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM has two heights of buildings: 1 and 2 level. a "1 level" building is generally a little cottage or farmhouse that might literally have a tiny second floor on it, but is treated by the game as a 1 level building. A "2 level" building is a much larger structure, often a town or city-style building that could have as many as 4 floors. However, for many reasons - especially the user-interface - CM treats such buildings as "2 level", simply a ground level and a top level.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On Public Relations: Compared to the sreen-shots on the previews the shots on your homepage appear outdated !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, many of the shots are outdated. We are planning on releasing some new shots, including ones of the vehicles in thus far, sometime soon. Unfortunately, getting rid of the low res LOS shots isn't so simple, as all but one of them was taken during the actual battle. I'm pretty sure I couldn't recreate those shots without redoing the battle description, and I don't have time for that.

Big Time

[Thomm]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>HMGs also won't be able to fire effectively directly down (or up) stairs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does that mean that we will see staircases in the building ? Or can squads "jump floors" everywhere in the house ?

Will the AI move squads from the top floor to the ground floor if they are under attack and this breaks LOS ?

Are there separate rooms ?

Are there doors ?

How do you take into account that 10 men cannot use the staircase all at once ?

I BET you have good answers for all of these and my restless soul will finally find peace !

Thomm

[This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 05-25-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Building interiors are approximated in CM. There are no doors, no staircases, no rooms, no furniture, etc. When we looked at doing interiors a long time ago we realized that this area is a quagmire. Once you start adding things you find out that you either have to keep adding stuff or stop with a half implemented system.

Trying to have realistic, highly detailed interiors would take months of development time. And we bet we STILL would be missing things Then there is all the AI coding that would be needed... YUCK!! Probably add another month to the schedule just for basic work. Another problem is that NO two buildings are, in fact, exactly alike. Since we don't hand paint buildings like CC, there is no way for us to achieve such diversity since our maps are built by end users. So all that simulation work would be for naught as the map system would require hundreds of unique buildings, which would take weeks to make, if not months.

The fact is that in theory we could make buildings more "realistic", but the game wouldn't ship before the 1st quarter of 2000 for sure. Not only that, we feel that the end results of the "realistic" way and CM's current approximation would likely be so similar that we would be left wondering why the heck we delayed the game for several months

Steve

[Thomm]

Approximated ? HOW ?

What about the examples I gave ? What will happen in the game ! PLEASE ! You always had nice solutions so far ! Tell me ! How does it work ?

Thomm

WARNING: I recommended this site on cc3.gamestats.com ! This is what happened:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Looked at the site and the game does not look all good to serve as competition to CC4. IMO the graphics seem a bit "rough" and it does not appear to be highly detailed. Especially the close-up of the three SS-panzer grenadiers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get the good stuff out, SOON !

[Guest Big Time Software]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to just list what would happen. There are litterally thousands of things that can happen, how do you expect us to list them off? Combat in buildings is approximated, which means that it isn't specific a=b kind of thing. You asked some specifics, and we gave you some specific answers. But we can't do this all day long. I'm really not sure what it is that you need to hear.

In terms of people thinking that CM can't stand up to CC ANYTHING doesn't bother us. People will continue to judge Combat Mission on looks alone until the demo comes out. We aren't worried about this because there is nothing we can do about it.

The SS Squad, BTW, isn't going to look any better in the final version than it does now. We have tweaked the figures as much as we feel we can. So if you people don't like what they see now, they won't like other screenshots either. Static screenshots simply will never look as good as they are in the game.

And, I will say this VERY strongly... If any gamer that calls himself a wargamer passes on Combat Misison because of its graphics, their loss. These people obviously don't care about a good game, only pretty looking pictures. We can only cater so much looks because technology, time, and money limit our ability to do what some people want us to. We are primarilly making a better game than anything else out there. And if these knee-jerk people saw CM for real I bet 90% would change their opinion within one minute. And if they don't, we don't care. They aren't our audience.

Steve

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, you tell 'em Steve. Lay down the law.

Hope everything everyone is planning for Memorial Day goes smoothly.

DjB

------------------

A lot of my schoolmates called me "warmonger."

remove the caps letters in my address to mail me

[Guest BigAlMoho]

To me, it always seemed that there were two types of wargamers: those that like to build little models and dress up in uniforms, etc. and those that revel in the human vs. human contest of skills... I count myself in the second group and am eagerly awaiting the GAME... Heck, if the graphics seem a little rough, maybe that will chase away the poseurs and let the rest of us get on with the real competition...

[Thomas Davie]

This Canadian wants to know what 'Memorial' day is? Do you get to set off extremely large amounts of fireworks in the approximate equivalent to our 'Queen Victoria' day. And no, I'm not making that up, we really do have a Queen Vic day. Shudder.

Now, in all seriousness, is this something akin to a veterans remeberance day?.

Just curious, because I usually find myself in the US on July 4th, and have figuratively and literally had a blast at that time.

Thanks

Tom

[Rhet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This Canadian wants to know what 'Memorial' day is?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, Memorial Day (sometimes called Decoration Day ) is the day that we Americans remember our servicemen that gave there lives for this country. Unfortunatly, most people in the states do not know what this day is for. Most people think it is a great excuse to go shopping or get drunk and play bumper boats on our lakes and rivers. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having a good time on Memorial Day, I just wish more people in this country would take a little time to remember those who have made our lives (and the Worlds for that matter)possible.

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Rhet

[This message has been edited by Rhet (edited 05-25-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thanks Thomm for the voice of support on the CC3 boards and understand that the frustration shown above (in my previous post) was NOT directed at you. Your support is very much appreciated, especially because we know we had to earn it.

I just have to say we don't understand the people on the CC3 boards. Those boards are FILLED with posts about the bugs and horrible game problems in CC3, not to mention Atomic's attitude, yet some still think that CC4 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread (just like they thought CC3 was going to be!). We sit here totally dumbfounded, especially when someone suggests that CM isn't going to measure up to the flawed reality that is CC3. It is insulting beyond words. Not to us, but to their own intelligence

In other news...

Thomas, although Memorial day has become the official kick off for summer, it was originally intended to remember those who gave their lives in the service of the United States military services. More recently it has been, as I understand, extended to others such as law enforcement officers and firefighters. The US also has a specific Veterans Day, which is more about giving thanks to service men and women in general, both living and dead.

Steve

[MOS was 71331]

Your statement "An assaulting squad down below will have a nice advantage if it can manage to get into the building" is exactly opposite to the Army doctrine I remember from my training in the '60s. The recommended method for capturing a building was to enter it as high as possible rather than on the ground floor. The most vivid explanation for this technique was illustrated in the training film "Combat in Built-Up Areas." Three or four of our soldiers were shown in a stairwell moving up, and there was quite a humorous scramble to get out of the stairwell after one of the men tossed a grenade up and it came tumbling back down the stairs. If you're attacking down, gravity works for you. It's against you when you're trying to go up.

As I mentioned, though, my training was 30 years ago. Army doctrine may be different now. Still, you're working on a WWII game, and the training film I saw was made around that time.

Anyway, good luck getting CM out the door -- and into my hands.

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Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968)

[Moon]

Since you mentioned tactics:

as far as I know it was standard German tactic to place the HGM (or any MG) on the ground floor and an observing team on the top floor. That way you can lay down grazing fire down the whole street and basically close it down for ANY traffic...

If you put the MG on the top floor you forfeit this opportunity since all bullets will end up in the ground a few meters behind your target. Additionally, there is no real advantage when you have the HMG high, because although it can maybe get better LOS it can also be taken out more easily from the distance, by an HE round for example...

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your statement "An assaulting squad down below will have a nice advantage if it can manage to get into the building" is exactly opposite to the Army doctrine I remember from my training in the '60s. The recommended method for capturing a building was to enter it as high as possible rather than on the ground floor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say that coming in lower is better than coming in higher. Being on a different floor from the HMG (which can't fire up or down easily), i.e. having a vertical separation, gives the advantage. Generally in a WW2 environment it's not easy to get from an outside street to a floor above the HMG so entering on the ground floor is going to be the more common occurrence.

Charles

[Doug Beman]

Grenades sure are going to ruin your day.

"Sorry about the mess, ma'am. We'll send the platoon steam-cleaner over tomorrow morning."

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

To follow up on the HMG on the top floor comments, I can tell you that I don't put HMGs upstairs as often as I used to. In an urban setting, or one with tall LOS obstructions (like lots of trees) they are actually (as Moon said) at a disadvantage higher up. Better to have them at ground level where they can defend themselves with their main weapon. Put a squad upstairs to do support fire and grenade tossing. Oh, and also being at ground level makes for easier repositioning and withdrawal. HMGs are SLOW to move, so having them upstairs is bad news sometimes.

Steve

[Thomm]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can tell you that I don't put HMGs upstairs as often as I used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this is a result of the game engine, then I owe you some respect (AGAIN ?! ).

I just want to repeat a Yes / No question of mine (to keep you busy):

Can squads "jump floors" everywhere in the house ?

And another one: Is there a direct LOS within a house, even if in reality it would be broken by walls ?

Or do squads have to get within a certain distance ("average room size") to get an unbroken LOS ?

Okay, hope I will not keep you to long with the answers ...

Thomm

[This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 05-27-99).]

[Pixman]

As anyone who has played Squad Leader knows, machine gun placement decisions are among the most important you make. I recall one board (2 or 3 I think) that was a village with a circular road in it. There was a 2 storey, 3 hex stone building that dominated one end of the town. Unfortunately, there was a stone wall in the hexes around the building that blocked LOS out onto the streets from the first floor of the building. This meant that, to combine the excellent range of the HMG with the excellent protection of the stonebuilding, you had to place the gun on the upper floor. What you sacrificed was the multi hex penetration of the HMG and the ability to evade capture when the building inevitably got close assaulted from the nearby woods. Also, like a previous post says, the HMG was vulnerable to long range shots from AFVs who: a) could get LOS to the upper floor of the building and b)were not nearly as impressed with the defensive qualities of a stone building.

What I learned (the hard way) was that it was better to not put the HMG in the stone building at all. Especially since taking the building was usually one of the victory conditions for the attacker. Instead, I would put some high morale squads with a good leader in the building, on the lower level, so the attacker had to reach the stone wall (or adjacent woods) just to get a shot at them. Then the concealed squads would open up from 2 hexes (40 yards) away on the enemy behind the stone wall. If the attacker tried to flank the stone building through the woods, then the first shot by the concealed squads would be point blank. In Squad Leader, point blank fire was doubled in firepower from the standard ratings -- virtually nuclear if firing 3 German rifle squads with a superior leader commanding them.

2 to 3 squads firing its small arms at a close range enemy can bring devastating fire to bear -- much more than an HMG. The HMG's advantages are range and penetration through multiple in line soft targets. Therefore, I would put the HMG in a wooden building that commanded the fast approaches to the stone building. Yes, the wooden building provides less protection, but the HMG could stay at ground level there and still see, while avoiding the long range hits of AFVs (they instead had to drive past buildings where I had concealed panzerfausts to obtain LOS on the HMG). And if it got hot in the wooden building, I could jet out the back and find another fire base.

By making these adjustments, life for the attacker got very ugly very quickly. While trying to reach his main objective, his forces are getting peppered by the HMG which is positioned in a non- victory condition location. He is forced to either avoid routes that the HMG can hit (always the best ones) or assault the HMG first to neutralize it. The former tactic costs time and prepares the defender for the direction of the assault. The latter also costs time and lives lost trying to get the HMG. Once he overcomes all of that, he still has to attack that stone building hornets nest at close range.

Invariably, the attacker would have to get an AFV in position to scare off the HMG (if the AFV survived the panzerfausts) and then get the AFV close to the building in conjunction with several squads assaulting from multiple hexes to have a chance at success.

To come full circle to the original premise of a machine gun upstairs and squads attacking from downstairs, if you find yourself in that situation, you have many more problems than gravity/grenades, the inability to point an HMG down a stairway, etc. The main problem you have is bad tactics. The squads will and should take out your HMG and you will lose the advantage on that section of the battlefield. Enemy squads near your big MGs is your first indicator that you placed them in a compromising position and that you did not get away while the getting was good -- better luck next time.

Thanks for enduring my long post. Can you tell that I cannot wait for the game?

Pixman

[Doug Beman]

Pix-yeah, we can tell that, like the rest of us, you're studying small-scale maps and outlining best routes of attack/defensive concetrations, re-reading technical books on tanks, and generally going bonkers waiting for this one.

Thanks for the summary of urban tactics. Since I've not played much in the way of miniatures wargames (I don't count CC3 anymore) I will probably need all the help I can get. I'll try that deployment scheme when CM ships.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thomm,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Can squads "jump floors" everywhere in the house ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. The treatment of a house interior is abstract in this way. However, a unit moving from one floor to the next is especially vulnerable to enemy fire (representing being restricted to the use of stairways, etc.).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is there a direct LOS within a house?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Again, because CM uses squads for units, not individual men, the scale is larger. It requires some abstraction for interiors.

However, inside large buildings, you cannot see from one end to the other. The farther you trace an LOS inside a building, the more it is degraded, and eventually blocked altogether. (So yes we do simulate interior walls in an abstract fashion).

Charles

[Thomm]

THANKS for the precise answers ( HAPPY )!

Slowly the pieces fall into place ! Seems that we think along the same lines (or rather lines of sight, haha )! I like these abstraction games ! And - you won't believe it - I think I am actually running out of questions ! But does not matter, because I am sure that I have already qualified myself for beta-testing .

Thanks again,

Thomm