Fionn Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Well, after discussions among BTS and some testers who frequent the board it has been decided to implement an intermediate Fog of War level.. Currently you either have: 1. FULL Fog of War ( only see enemy units if you really could and have very little info on them unless they are very close and visible) or 2. ZERO Fog of War ( you can see all enemy units at all times, regardless of LOS and have perfect information on all of them at all times.) It has been decided to implement a third setting which I'm going to refer to as intermediate Fog of War: 3. Intermediate: While the game will still use realistic LOS rules it will allow you to have perfect or near perfect information on all enemy units in LOS.. In other words.. If an enemy is hiding in woods in ambush you won't see it thus spoiling the ambush BUT once it opens fire you should be able to perfectly identify it, know its size, type, experience, ammo etc.. Of course the exact details are up to Charles but this is the basic gist. I'd like to remind everyone at this stage that ANY reasonable suggestions will be incorporated insofar as is possible and consistent with the games design philosophy. No-one from the testing list or BTS is here to shoot down ideas. BTS and testers like me may not agree with you on something BUT if you prove you have a point then it is given serious attention. This became an issue about 24 hours ago. Today a solution has been found. Name another company which does that eh? I think a more complete post is coming soon but I asked for and got permission to post this here now so people would know the result of their REASONED arguments . ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 WOW. Awesome! Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risc Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 CM will be like HPS wargames, they too have 3 leves of fog of War. I pretty much welcome this addition. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatsby Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Personally I have NO idea why anybody would want it...I know this won't affect the full fog of war but it makes me nervous that if there is sufficient pressure you guys will fold...Please please realize you have a great game here and don't bow down to pressure...I went through this with TOAW where Norm tried what had never been done before...a disengagement penalty...well everyone went nuts because they couldn't just pull their armour out of the line and send it whizzing down to another position...obviously nobody had see two companies try to move through a forest under fire...anyhow..Norm at first created an intermediate step where those who didn't like the disengagement penalty could turn it off.. after a month it was basically gone... Listen guys you've had terrific patience and courage to fly int he face of the conventions...I admire that and your game proves it was worth it...so please just continue to develope your game along the lines of your vision.. I realize you haven't changed anything yet...its just that the people who want full info on enemy units can get that game anywhere and in my humble opnion really don't "get" this game...I am worried they will feel inspired to try redisign the game about everything..next we will have a unit list telling you that squad a is disorganized or dead...I mean we already have someone claiming that the soldiers are spotted too easily and he was firing from on top of a wall...Please give people at least 3 months of playing time before you change anything..I want one copy of this game that is clean of outside interference that actually is close to what you intended...I am afraid this is a slippery slope.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I know what you're getting at John, but consider this: In the World at War series of games there is four levels of FOW. How people play with themselves is entirely up to them (as it should be...), but when an email game is started both sides have to agree on all the game variables before the game starts - and if you find yourself getting into a game you don't like you can knock it on the head right there. All the W@W email games I've been involved in used max FOW. I think the same system will probably evolve with CM where there are variable settings. JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 John said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I want one copy of this game that is clean of outside interference that actually is close to what you intended...I am afraid this is a slippery slope.. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Give up now man. BTS has changed a lot of things in response to grognard/fan/potential customer input. Today they added this intermediate level of FOW. A few days ago they took out smoke trails from bazookas, panzerschrecks and panzerfausts. I didn't see evidence of it in the demo but they said they were going to make it harder to spot mounted troops in halfracks. They changed ( or will change I didn't check the demo to see) the kneeling posture of the soldiers. They changed the US airborne uniform. All of these changes were driven is some way by "outsider" input. It is this very responsiveness which has endeared the development team to so many. Fionn makes this point rather often. Anyway, I don't think there is a pure CM out there. It is still a work in progress and within limits, good ideas are still accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I agree with Gatsby 100%. The game is almost perfect the way it is now. People complain because they did not spent enough time playing the game. There is so much to discover here. Just today, I started using #5 view to plot movements for my units. This gives you a clear and complete control over your units path. No more running vehicles into the woods, off the road and so on. What a joy to watch my half-tracks executing a perfectly coordinated movement. I made it into town in the Last Defence scenario on turn #11 without a single casualty to my troops. Tiger killed one H18 and my Stug's the other two. Of course, now, that I know the scenario inside out it is easy to do. The point I'm trying to make here is that the more you play this fantastic game the more you realize what a gem we have here. BTS, please cash in my pre-order and e-mail me that full beta game now. Thanks for reading, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Paul, Are you saying that you made it to turn 11 without a single casulaty? That is incredible. Nice job. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Gatsby & Paul, Don't fear that we will "cave in" to unreasonable demands from people who want to change CM into something it's not supposed to be. We won't. We can be very stubborn when we want to be. The intermediate FOW setting is entirely optional. Personally I won't use it and it sounds like you won't either. No problem. Its addition won't affect the way you and I play CM even one tiny bit. But there are some people who would like it, and it's a pretty reasonable request so we decided to add it. When things are reasonable, we are likely to listen. CM won't get watered down from outside pressure. We can promise you that. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Kingtiger Yes, that is what I'm saying. Once you understand the type of terrain represented and sneak and hide commands... THEN, you really start to appreciate the beauty of this game. The US troops never saw a single german foot soldier. I left my King Tiger way back by the edge of the map and led the attack with my two Stug's and half-tracks along the west side of the map. With the #5 view, like I said before, you can plot the movements accurately. I tell you, that I never ever experienced such a great feeling in a wargame as when I watched those two Stug's going side by side, leap frogging ahead and firing those big guns almost simultaneously. Lock your view on one of them and use #1 key and just enjoy the ride. Man, when both of those guns fire at the same target at the same time there is nothing left of the suckers most of the time, or they immediately pick up their tail and run. Ya, the bazooka man was brave enough to fire few shots, but his hands must of been shaking really bad, because he missed every single time and then he decided he had enough and try to run away, only to be shot in the back. I finally lost one of my Stug's in turn #11 to me still unknown cause. He was between two buildings after just finishing off one H18, when both of the buildings next to him exploded and knocked out my Stug, killing three of the crew. I never saw a flash or anything. All three buildings and my Stug got hit at the exact same moment by something. I was shelling the town with 81mm mortar at the time and I saw those explosions, but like I said I saw nothing hitting the buildings. I still have the saved game file if anybody wants to see. Thanks for reading, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 I think the addition of a 3rd level of FOW is a good solution. Mind you, I will never use it. I'm part of the 2.5% who already think players get far too much info and control over their units. If I had my way I'd double the FOW, triple the order's delays, and limit the number of orders a player could give. Still, I do recognise that different people like to play games differently, and if we can all get what we want out of the game, so much the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 Brian, I agree. In fact, compared to me, you are a control freak (I see your tripling and double it!) Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 1, 1999 Author Share Posted November 1, 1999 FWIW there is zero chance of caving in occuring for a few more sales LOL... I will NEVER use the intermediate or zero FOW settings (except for testing) but I strongly supported adding it for those who want it. basically IMO lots of people have been spoiled by other wargames and if it gives them their bone I'll let them have it so long as it in now ay affects the core of the game (which as I view it is the ultra-hardcore real FOW grognard game we got here ) Also, IMO, the FULL FOW setting is going to become the "standard" PBEM setting and given a couple of months most of the guys bleating about not having full info etc will settle in quite comfortably into FULL fog of war (which theyre not really used to from their other games.) Also, I'm mindful of newbies. I think it's good to give them an intermediate level between the ultra-simpleness of NO fog of war and the realism of total fog of war.. It'll help them learn the game and progress to FULL fog of war more quickly ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hnh3 Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 BTS, Does that mean that we have a shot at a unit access menu then? A faster way to access a particular unit is needed much more than another level of FOW (IMO), and essential for internet play (many people have to pay-per-play). Mind you, I'm not talking about a unit INFO menu-- I've seen what kind of reaction THAT brings. Just a way to get to a unit in two keypresses instead of shift-c, shift-c, shift-c, hunt for unit, click unit or '+/-' ad infinitum. And if you DARE tell me that this detracts from the 'feel' of CM, I'll park my Tiger on your foot and do spins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 1, 1999 Author Share Posted November 1, 1999 Well you sure as hell are wearing me down.. I think I'm just going to avoid those threads from now on.. Too energy-sapping for my tastes. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 Paul, I bet you a virtual case of beer that you are wrong on either the King Tiger or the zero casualties or both. I raise and call - I really want to see your *King Tiger* and taking the town with *zero* casualties, please send me the save file. Because the one time I tried the scenario, I had a Tiger I, and although I am a most cautios player, flattening house after house, I lost a total of about 5 soldiers due to odd mortar fire (or something can't tell because my computer doesn't show impacts or give sound cues but it showed small craters so I assume it was mortar fire) and maybe some infantry fire (couldn't tell) and I still hadn't taken the town when the Hellcats appeared and the game crashed. yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 My second time through the scenario as the Germans I roasted the Americans. Mostly because I knew everything already having played from both sides. I knew how many mortars the Americans had, how many platoons, and how many bazookas. Finally casualty total: 19 German 166 Americans (22 of those were captured) It's a good thing their will likely be many scenarios because knowing everything certainly lessens the enjoyment. I think the intermediate FOW will be a good option for newer players to learn what's going on before diving into total FOW. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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