Dateimoerder Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 First of all, I would like to say that I have found (so far) the demo of CM extremely pleasing. I have been an avid fan of the Close Combat game series for about 3 years, and have done some serious 'Hacking' and editing with that game. The point I found almost immediately that I really appreciate, is that the AI in CM is outstanding. The way it deploys units, utilizes units, and coordinates attacks is stunning. In that same vein, I have a grievance with the method of reinforcement within the system. Specifically in "The last defense" I have played as the Germans, and find that the sudden arrival of 3 Hellcats is an impossible (at this stage of my greeness w/ CM) barrier to overcome. Instantly they have the high ground, full amunition, and high LOS. It is this type of sudden counterweight through reinforcements that needs to be *fixed* (dare i say it). The way I see it, the sudden arrival of a mass of units on the play map greatly alters the scenario in that turn. I would suggest a few possible solutions to such a sudden change in the battle: 1) Deny the battle Commander the ability to command these newly arrived units for one turn. The units would not just sit there and take fire, but would respond according to the AI that controls each team. 2) Instead of entering units in the Command phase (giving the commander a chance to set commands for them), enter them durring the actual fight phase of a turn: Somewhat like FO fire works, it can come part way through the fight phase. 3) Allow extended map regions that are non-playable, but allow extended LOS in which units can spot upcomming Reinforcements. (this would take the most code I suppose, and therefore the least likely) 4) Instead of bringing reinforcments in as a 'Force' trickle them in team by team. For instance, if there are 10 teams in a reinforcement force, a random number would enter one turn, then the next turn a random numbe would again enter, and so on until all had entered. So if 3 entered the first turn, then 5, then 2 would enter and all the force would be on map. Regards- Cappy-R / Dateimörder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 The last time I played the Last Defence scenario I rushed all three tanks and all halftracks along the road to the left. i was able to position everything behind structures. I used the Tiger to knock out two hellcats and hold it's position waitijng for the last to make a bad move. Then, I rushed three halftracks towards the left into the wheat fields hoping to draw fire from the last remaining hellcat. As predicted the Hellcat hunted these units and I turned my Stug using hunt mode up the main road around the bridge area. The Stug turned aimed and eliminated the last remaining Hellcat. Lost one halftrack, but saved the tanks. A little gamey, but the Hellcats do not present a significant advantage to the US. It was interesting prior to watching execution. I watched from the Hellcats position and it had no view of anything prior to movement. Lesson: When the objective is to take the town, sometimes it may be a better idea to rush it, then to sit back and pick away. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuNZ Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 I did it the complete opposite way .... moved my infantry through the woods, got them into position to jump off, left one stug hard up against the woods near the deployment zone with a good line of site down the road into town and up the hill (well, this was my second time round, but hey, the road's always a good spot for reinforcements to arrive on the field ), and had the tiger out on the left flank to support the assault on the isolated building on that flank (the victory location one - damn not good at explaining positions without a map ) and the other stug on the far right with good line of sight down into the town. Once all my support weapons were in place, I attacked with the infantry on left flank, just in time for the damn hellcats to arrive. Fortunately the other stug and tiger's positions also had good los to the hill top, and final result was three hellcats + several infantry for the stug on the right flank. Having all the support weapons in position for the attack and doing it by leaping one platoon forward at a time with others providing cover meant that by the end, the squads of the two motor platoons had only lost 2-3 men each ... I took serious loses with halftrack mounted platoon, as mortar or howitzer fire collapsed the building they were sheltering in - down to 1/3 of original strength (note to self - disperse troops next time ... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Ahh they make smart in New Zealand. I really like the leap-frog approach to moving troops forward. It never occured to me to implement a strategy to provide cover fire while advancing troops. On the other hand, thinking back on my other victories, I just kind of naturally advanced troops under cover fire. look forward to playing you sometime in PBEM. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Hi Cappy, The "sudden appearance of reinforcements" is not really a game bug but more of a thing you didn't like in this scenario IMO. The good thing for you is that CM comes with a VERY easy to use scenario editor (unlike some games which require hacking which we both know) so there will be no shortage of scenarios. If you don't like one designer's style then simply choose one of the other 40 or 50 scenarios on the site (they're VERY easy to make and I expect we'll see a few hundred scenarios within a couple of months of release.) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuNZ Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 kingtiger, I'd enjoy that a lot Though knowing me, I might do well against an AI, but go to pieces against another player. Oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Well, I don't think that those hellcats have an all that great advantage appearing up on that hill. There is little cover up there and LOS to that spot is pretty good from most areas of the map. In the game that I'm playing now, the Germ AI's King Tiger is sitting on the edge of the woods just past the curve in the road leading to town. I ordered 1 cat to go full speed to the right, one full to the house on the right side of the road, and one full to the left house. Within 3 seconds of them begining thier movements, one took a direct hit, while the one on the right is stuck behind cover lest he get smoked to trying to get to the bridge. If there is a 1 turn delay before orders can be given, I would have 3 bonfires burninging instead of 1. Now I would quibble with the map/scenario design the other way in that I would have added a little bit more map space depicting the road cresting the hill, so as to allow the reinforcements to appear in a more protected enviroment that currently offered. But that's an issue of the individual scenario design, and not the game itself. MikeyD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 The scenario designer has absolute control over where and when reinforcements appear. You CAN even have them appear in waves as you suggest, Dateimörder (what a name... ) In this particular scenario, they appear suddenly on the crest - and this is not even unrealistic (in this instance), since they would not have been seen on the reverse slope. But, in the Editor, you could make the map longer and have them appear on the reverse slope easily if that's what you prefer. So it's not a game-thing, but a scenario-thing, as Fionn pointed out already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Dateimoerder, If you think three hellcats is an impossible barrier to overcome, just wait till all your heavy German armor in open ground gets diced, sliced and brewed up by the American air superiority. See Moon & Fionn's AAR's for play-by-play on this type of occurence. AAR's: http://combathq.thegamers.net/battle/battle.html Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 *SOB* I think everyone takes a perverse pleasure from reminding me of my "Arty and Jabo Hell" ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dateimoerder Posted October 30, 1999 Author Share Posted October 30, 1999 To All: Your replies were both polite, and thorough. Thanks for telling me that I suck with tanks! ;'P I would rather be excellent with my infantry than good with tanks, because what is going to happen when I dont have tanks? BTW- I replayed the scenario as the Krauts, and still I lost all my vehicles (sparing one HT), but I took the entire town and surrounding area up to the river with my inf, getting a 5 to 1 casualty rating (I think that is pretty good). From playing CC I know what suppression fire is for, and I use it. I still dont quite grasp smoke tactics, not because I dont understand them, but because Close Combat's smoke was so pathetic that it was useless. It is good to see that the people who make the game actually respond to their user-base! (just check out l'affair de Ätömïc at CC3 boards) Just ask any Joe on that board what it was like to get Atomic to talk. I would like to congratulate the design team on a spectacular game, and as a reward they will get my money :'P Regards- Dateimörder / Cappy-R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Dateimörder / Cappy-R, Hi again. Outstanding kill-ratio especially with the armor loss. I too have lost all my big guns / armor as Germans and Americans in both scenarios. It truly is a heart-stopping experience, but as you mentioned definitely not a battle-ending situation. Nice Win. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Well, I agree with the orginal post. I don't like the appearance of the Hellcats on the high ground as if they were teleported into the game. But, this is a scenario design issue. Nothing needs to be changed in CM at all to fix this IMO. Just add 50 yards more to the 'top' of the map, make it all sloping down and there you have it. The Hellcats now will enter entirely out of LOS but they will have to actually MOVE to the top of the hill. A BIG difference from all of a sudden here we are, standing, facing, from high ground enemy armor. Their arrive on turn 10 (a little early for my taste btw) cost be my Tiger and one Stug for only one Hellcat. It was damn tough getting the other two with my remaining Stug let me tell you! ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Scott, Tell us how you did this. I can't imagine how I would maneuver my Stug into position against two remaining Hellcats. thanks in advance Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I'll show you in multi-player No, really I got behind a stone building, then crept around the coner in HUNT to where I would be in LOS of ONLY one Hellcat. He was of course being occupied by a couple of my MGs at the time...one down. The second one was a little more cagey. I had to 'bait' him with a half track. Cost me that half track but while he was reloading... ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Scott, I did the same thing with a Stug, but only one Hellcat was up the road and I decided to pull a gamey move and send halftracks scattering all over the place to occupy yhe Hellcat. I was confident the Halftracks would move out more quickly (fast move) and draw attention from the Hellcat fast. But, that is impressive you were able to eventually knock out two. I am confident that two hellcats would have smoked by most finely executed plans. I think you will brew-up my HVAP firing kittens in Multi-player. Thanks for the quick reply. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 FWIW I don't consider this a gamey move at all. Quite the contary. It was the best use of the only resources we had. If we did not 'sacrifice' those half tracks we might have very well failed in our mission, right? Tough calls in real life but they had to be made. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Guys, Recon vehicles were REALLY fast for exactly that purpose.. If they survived the first shot fired at them then their speed gave them a good chance of pulling back into cover so quickly that nothin would hit them. Gamey? Maybe a little but then again it also happened in real life so if it works then it works ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Scott, I think you are right. I guess, ordering some high speed vehicles to draw fire was common. I just felt at the time that I was being gamey. You are right without a doubt and now I feel better. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Welcome Cappy-R, glad you are enjoying it. Yeah, tanks are a real easy thing to lose! We had a debate about giving the M18s cover, but that would have unbalanced it too much. In my games I generally KO'd/lost the M18s each game I played. As for Turn 10... they come in that early for a reason. The game is going to be OVER before long if they don't. As it is the US have a hard time winning this one. Any more delay of the reinforcements would doom the US to certain death. The German armor has to be in the fields and distracted or the M18s are toast. Any hit on them is likely to cause a KO, where as I have seen the Tiger take 10 direct hits and still keep on ticking I also totally disagree that the appearance of the M18s is unrealistic. As Moon said, they just crested a hill and came into LOS. Making a reverse slope would not change this. It would allow the US player to choose the enterence point, but I don't like to give players too many options when it comes to deployment. I would rather challenge the player to deal with things outside of his control. I like nothing more to play a game and have some crappy situation not of my making come creeping in. It is one of the toughest challenges a player can face, and I like challenges This is why my deployment areas tend to be pretty restrictive in the strategic sense, but offer lots of tactical flexibility. The challenge is to see what you can make of these restrictions. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 When the Hellcats appeared the German Tiger and StuG were idly shelling my MGs in the town. I saved all three by racing them down the hill at full speed. I even took out one of the StuG, too. The other was already killed by a heroic bazooka team. It took a while for them to get going, but their speed sure saved them. Actually, this is one reason why a reverse slope would be nice. I could have had them already moving full speed rather than having to wait 18 seconds for them to start moving. Jason P.S. Hellcats are awful close assault vehicles. Oh, I'm glad you added vehicle MG ammo tracking. All of my Hellcats ran out of ammo. Otherwise I could have shot up more infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 "I also totally disagree that the appearance of the M18s is unrealistic. As Moon said, they just crested a hill and came into LOS." That is my point. They did not "just crest the hill". They are 'teleported' in with no starting movement, no standing orders, and the perfect facing. "Making a reverse slope would not change this." SURE it would! The Hellcats would be moving over the top of the hill at the same time they came in LOS of the Panzers. There is a big difference in your game (you should know). They would have to come to a full stop to get the accuracy like they get now. And they migh very well have to turn the turret a little. All take only a few seconds...but that can make a world of difference. "It would allow the US player to choose the enterence point..." Only to a certain extent. Make the reverse slope more heavy woods, marsh, etc. There are ways around it or to penelize the US player for too much reverse slop movement (ie it will me several turns longer slogging through the woods to enter elsewhere). ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Guys, Remember, this is just an issue of the design of one scenario, not a game structure thing. So of course there will be differing opinions, play balance issues, etc. In the full version of CM, we'll have many different scenarios, by different authors, with different styles and goals. And best of all you can just pop any scenario into the editor and make any changes you wish. It's the same editor we use and it's quite easy. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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