Cueball Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Many of the German armored cars could go in reverse as easily as forward. They even had two steering positions. In CM, will we have an option of "REVERSE FAST" so we can get out of trouble as fast as we get into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Aha, this is one of the most enduring myths... I used to believe this was SOP too but I've been won over by the fact that only those A/Cs which could move on railway tracks had the two driver positions. I've heard and am likely to believe that they just used the two driving positions on tracks.. They only had 1 driver after all IIRC ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Hi Fionn, I am a German WWII reenactor, and recently my Unit just purchased an Original SdKfz 232 (8RAD)Armored Car from our contact in Luxembourg (Who brought it out of the Czech Republic) and although she is fairly beat up (exterior rust, and interior damage) It definately has two drivers positions, one in front and one in the rear .... So I can vouge for this particular vehicle as having two drivers spots. It is VERY cool though, alot of parts inside have been repainted and worked on, but after we removed some of the post war paint, we uncovered many German Waffenamps, and alot of dates (mostly 1942) Just too cool, I feel like a kid again... hehe... ~JT ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Great to hear about your restoration efforts. If I ever get some free time again I am in the process of restoring a 1944 M29c Weasel. Much better shape than your 232, but a lot more common Where would you German reinactors be without the Czech Republic, hehehe... BTW, did you get that from PAK Collections? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Don't know too much about the steering thing. I have two sources here, one of which states that there was really no front or back to the vehicle, and could be driven equally well in either direction (the 6 gears forward and 6 reverse support this). I'll talk to Charles about this, but we are not going to put in a special order just for the 23x 8 wheeled armored cars. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Steve, I don't blame you for not wanting to mess with the game ... I just wanted to answer the question that was posted, I think the game is fine the way it is ... You are right, the car could be run the same way forwards or backwards, obviously because of 2 driving positions. The turret can be spun 360, so it really doesn't matter. The German Armored Car Crew were trained in all positions as well, that way if the driver (or whoever)inside were injured, another crew member could jump in his position and know what he was doing ... I was in the US Army Mechanized Infantry and we were trained the same way, everyone knew everyone elses job. Good luck with your weasel, it sounds very cool ... and as for the Czech Republic ... OMG you are so right, I love that country! ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted December 16, 1999 Share Posted December 16, 1999 Sorry ... double post ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee [This message has been edited by Gespenster (edited 12-16-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Gespenster, what unit do you belong to? I subscribe to the Wermacht mailing list even though I don't reenact. The amount of info the characters have is staggering at times. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 WRT the Czech Rep....When I was in Prague a few years ago I stayed for a week on the outskirts of town. Everyday I passed this used 'car' yard that in addition to lots of Lada's also had a heap of military stuff too. T34's, a T55, flak guns, some armoured cars (post WW2), shells piled around, some light AAA and a few AT guns. Never did go in for a look around tho, I wish I had now, there could well have been some wermacht stuff stashed away that I couldn't see.... Maybe next time Regs Fen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Mike, I am a member of the 11th Panzer Division reenactment group based in Virginia. And Also am a member of the listbot ... ~JT ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Hi JT, I meant to say in my post that I would talk to Charles about some sort of quick workaround. My suggestion to him (already made) would be to increase the reverse acceleration and top speed. This might not be possible, but if it could be done easily I know he will do it. Thanks all for the info. I always assumed the 4th crew member to be a radio man, not a backseat driver Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Oops, it seems I was unclear.. I admit that many of the ACs had 2 driving positions. My point was that my info is that the reason they had them was that these cars were designed to be able to be put on railway lines and run up and down them in front of trains. (I have seen pictures of a 234/1 on a railway line like this REVERSING down the line ( by virtue of the rear driver position) ). My comment was intended to merely say that during combat I don't think that one driver sat in the front and another in the back ready to take over at the commander's word.. Sorry for not being clear. Gespenster, do you have pictures or something? Can you drop me an email about the 232 ? I'd be extremely interested in it. The 8 wheelers always held an interest for me. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Hi If you seek for some kind of published confirmation concerning the FACT that all 6 and 8 wheeled german recce vehicled had backwards driver (that´s what the 4th men was exclusively for and still is if I think of the german Luchs), the ability to drive on tracks was absolutely secondary, a nice feature. So look into the books mentioned below. BTW: They had the backwards driver to be out of fire as quick as possible whenever needed, since german recce doctrin says that it is the purpose of recce to see as much as possible without being seen, not to fight. Their weapons where merely intended for appropriate self defense reasons. Spielberger: Militärfahrzeuge, Bd.4, Die gepanzerten Radfahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres 1905-1945 Gebundene Ausgabe - 140 Seiten (1997) Motorbuch Vlg., Stgt.; ISBN: 3879433372 Osprey:1855328496 NVG 029: GERMAN ARMOURED CARS AND RECCE HALF-TRACKS 1939-45 Chamberlain/Doyle:Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two Peter Chamberlain, Hilary Doyle Taschenbuch - 272 Seiten (Oktober 1999) Sterling Publishing; ISBN: 1854095188 Helge ============== Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 >My comment was intended to merely say that >during combat I don't think that one driver >sat in the front and another in the back >ready to take over at the commander's word.. Hmm.. I wouldn't write the notion off entirely. There must be a reason that the postwar Luchs also has the two positions, and I have not heard of any references to them being on rail lines. Apparently, all three crewmen in the Swedish S-tank have driver controls.. The driver/gunner, the commander (So that he can take over the gun if the driver/gunner gets hit), and the rearward-facing radio operator. i.e. they can get out of trouble quickly without exposing the rear of the vehicle. DWH Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Well, I'm pretty much ready to admit German ACs had a second crewman in the back to drive during combat. Initially I had thought that. Then I read a book stating it was extremely rare for it to happen in combat and was a luxury put in for dealing with railway tracks but now, if the modern Luchs has a permanent crewmember at the 2nd driving station then I'm all for the Puma going as fast in reverse as it went forward. I knew the Luchs had 2 driving stations but not that the 2nd station was occupied during combat. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Well, in fairness, I'm not advocating that it is standard Bundeswehr doctrine and training to have both driver positions filled at the same time. The only thing I am saying with certainty is that the position is there, and that the capability for a second driver to get the vehicle out in a hurry is also present. Where my <inferment> is, as opposed to stated fact, is that anything which has been deemed a good idea in theory, but fairly pointless in combat, is usually discarded in the sequel to the vehicle. A case in point is the 20mm coaxial mount in some tanks. This was replaced in the French tanks by a .50 cal, and the M1 by the 7.62mm (Originally planned to have a 20mm) after it was found that in combat tankers tended to use the main gun on anyway even on targets that deserved the 20mil. Anyway, if the second position was deemed pointless or unused after practical experience, it wouldn't be present in Luchs. Thus logic would dictate that the second position can be and has been used for fast getaways in 'reverse', and thus would be validly modelled in CM or any other wargame. Whether it <should> be modelled (i.e. is it worth the coding and options for whatever the effect is) is another matter entirely... DWH Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Acutally trooper the person who convinced me is Helge. If Helge says this is the way they do it in the Bundeswehr then that's good enough for me . Your logic-based argument is very good though although I disagree about the 20mm cannon. I have King of the Killing Zone and seemingly it came down to a cost-effectiveness analysis and the fact that there was a cost limit on the M1. If you don't have King of the Killing Zone I strongly recommend it./ There's some great reading in it. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 LOL.. Whoops.. I missed the statement about the 4th man in Helge's post. (As I hang my head in shame...) I'll see if I can dig out that reference I found on the 20mm. The debate seems to have been raging since they stuck one in half of the Centurion prototypes back in WWII. However, I will grant you that the book in question makes no attempt to be of the sort of calibre to be stored in a museum, even though it seems to be accurate and detailed none-the-less.. Either way, they decided that given the amount of space it took up, it wasn't worth giving up all that ammo stowage space. I can't see how adding a 20mm would drastically increase the cost of an Abrams. DWH Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 ------------------------ Well, in fairness, I'm not advocating that it is standard Bundeswehr doctrine and training to have both driver positions filled at the same time. The only thing I am saying with certainty is that the position is there, and that the capability for a second driver to get the vehicle out in a hurry is also present. ------------------------- Trust me it IS DOCTRINE, or do you think they spend lots of money to develop this stuff, produce it and build it in to leave it alone? No it is there and it is used for good reason and the same goes for the 8 wheeled chassis in WW2. Hey they had 6forward and 6backward gears. What do you think they were for? To the 20mm thing. They had to build in something which is effective against enemy APCs and wheeled recce vehicles. The 20mm is able to fire 2 different ammunition types one is "Spreng-Brand" that´s a kind of HE, the other is a kind of subcaliber Tungsten core AP Ammo. It is usual to fit 3 SP and 2 AP sequentally on the Ammo belts. Furthermore, against soft targets, the Luchs has it´s coax MG3, that´s more than enough. To the 20mm thing concerning the Abrams and other MBTs, I think space inside the tank is the main factor. Todays MBTs are so filled up with electronic stuff that you simply have no room to build in something like a 20mm, and it´s not only the space for the gun itself, you need a lot of space for the ammo too. When I remember my times on the gunner seat of the LEO2, my oh my, the only advantage was that you can´t tip over if you fell asleep Helge ============== Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted December 25, 1999 Share Posted December 25, 1999 Hi Gespenster, Does your group have a website? It'd be cool to see some pics of your 232, as it's undergoing its restoration. Also, Does anyone have any info on websites offering old soviet AFVs???? Thanks! ------------------ Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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