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Molotov Cocktails


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Probably too late to have them in the game, but I just thought I'd relate a small story that happened last night smile.gif I went to a party at a friends farm, and the 'fire' of the evening was the burning of a small shed that was going to be demolished.

Well, we also had 10 beer bottles filled with gasoline and capped (with a beer bottle capper). We detonated them by a) throwing them into the fire, B) placing them in the fire, and c) tying a gas soaked rag around the neck and lighting that.

They were all satisfying, but the most effective ones were where the gas boiled, causing the bottle to explode from internal pressure sending a fireball about 10 feet in all directions. It's hard not to imagine a vehicle being severely damaged from something like that.

Also, they were a lot louder than I had expected.

Tom

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Guest Big Time Software

Molotov Cocktails worked the same way a flamethrower does, but obviously with less punch. The point was to get an engine fire started and/or smoke the crew out. In the right circumstances, with a good hit, they were indeed deadly.

However, we are not including these in CM because they were a "non-standard issue" weapon. Their use was quite rare in general, but especially for the Western Front. Both sides were provided with plenty of tank busting devices. We will look at Molotovs again when we do the Eastern Front because they appear to have been used quite a bit by both sides early in the war.

Steve

P.S. Tom, fun parties you go to! smile.gif

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Guest Scott Clinton

"We will look at Molotovs again when we do the Eastern Front because they appear to have been used quite a bit by both sides early in the war."

Ohhh...you gotta have them for the Eastern Front!

But it sounds like you you have their effects pegged pretty well (IMHO). I did a butt-load of research on them for a set of miniature's rules I am finishing.

If they did not start an engine fire, smoke the crew or just cause them to plain panic

they had about as much effect as you would expect 12oz of petrol to have on several inches of armor plate (zero!). :)

Do you guys have Gammon Bombs in CM? I been wondering...ya know the US airborne used them too...

------------------

The Grumbling Grognard

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Since the Eastern Front came up, will you also look to include Cossacks, Partisans and Finnish Ski troops? Squad Leader has a scenario called "Silent Death" where Finns sneak into a town at night on skis while the Russian garrison is mostly asleep. It's not pretty, these guys were fast, quiet and knew their purpose.

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Guest Lokesa

I liked the scenario where Cossacks are attacking a headquaters unit behind German lines. God it was hard to keep up as russians once units started breaking, not enough leaders to go around.

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Guest Big Time Software

Too early to comment on the Eastern Front version in absolute terms, but we will be looking at all of these units. Horses are going to be a pain in the butt to do, but the dang'd Soviets used them all over the place, even as late as 1944. Some horse cavalry units played a key role in Bagration.

Steve

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Guest Big Time Software

Correct, but the Germans used them nearly exclusively for limber purposes. Most common use was for artillery, field kitchens, and Platoon supply wagons. The Soviets, OTOH, used them in the front lines as traditional cavalry mounts. German allied Cossacks also used horses, but these units did not fight on the Western Front.

Steve

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I remember that SL scenario too Lokesa. I did not like it because, like you said, those Cossacks just started to rout all over the board and their horses ran wild. Pass the Vodka!!

Steve, you mentioned the Germans using horses to haul and specifically to limber arty. I do not recall limbering of any kind being discussed on this site. I apologize if I missed it.

My questions are:

1.) Does the time scale of CM allow for limbering/moving/unlimbering/firing towed ordinance?

2.) If so, will the Germans have horses for this purpose?

3.)Along the same lines, will crews be able to push guns short distances?

Sorry if I should have put this in another thread. I'll be more careful in the future.

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Guest Big Time Software

I'm sure this has been covered, but probably a LONG time ago (perhaps even with the old BBS!).

CM's time/map scale is too small for field guns to be employed. All of that stuff is off map. The only guns you will see in action are AT, AA, and IGs. Probably some IGs were towed by horse, but in a combat situation the horses would have been withdrawn to the rear. Because adding horses would be a HUGE pain, and their use would be rare and hold no real game value, we decided that they had no place in CM. Like I said, we will look at horses again for the EF version.

Some guns can be pushed some distance by their crews. Depends on terrain and the gun. You can forget about a crew moving an 88AT on their own, BTW smile.gif

Steve

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Thanks for the response Steve. I did see that 105s, etc would be off board. I also concur that horses would be a pain and that the big boy 88 is not going to be "pushed around".

Will there be any limbering/unlimbering activities at all? Behind trucks even? I appreciate the chance to follow up.

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Guest Big Time Software

Yes, there is limbering/unlimbering. In the battle I was just playing I had two 20mm Flak guns towed by light trucks. They even repositioned them once after initial deployment, but one of the trucks was damaged and the crew had to push the gun the rest of the way. Boy, that was slow going wink.gif

Oh, in another game (same scenario) the trailing gun was knocked out by a close hit, but the truck was not harmed. How is that for cool?

Steve

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Sounds very sexy !

But ...

(1) Doesn't this cause problems with additional animations ? Will there be a rigid connection between the gun and the towing machine ?

(2) When the gun is coupled to the truck, are they treated as seperate objects or one (with regard to the targetting/hitting/damaging algorithm) ?

(3) Can a truck tow any gun or just the one "assigned to it" ?

(4) Different topic: How will wheeled vehicles turn ? On the spot (like only the Königstiger could) or in an arc ?

(5) Yet another topic: Will the user interface display hit and kill probabilities

(preferably in percent wink.gif) when I aim at an enemy vehicle ?

Thanks, Thomm

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Guest Big Time Software

Hi Thomm,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Doesn't this cause problems with additional animations ? Will there be a rigid connection between the gun and the towing machine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no "limbering" animation if that is what you mean. The vehicle backs up to the gun, the gun attaches itself, and the crew "disappears". I'm pretty sure the crew sits in the vehicle, but forget wink.gif I'm pretty sure we changed the ridged connection (which didn't look good) to a flexible one. I'll post a follow up the next time I tow something.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(2) When the gun is coupled to the truck, are they treated as seperate objects or one (with regard to the targetting/hitting/damaging algorithm) ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everything is seperate. As noted above an artillery round went off behind the truck and greased the gun, but the truck and crew were fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(3) Can a truck tow any gun or just the one "assigned to it" ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any. While trucks in real life have assigned guns, when they are in the field they do whatever an officer tells them to do wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(4) Different topic: How will wheeled vehicles turn ? On the spot (like only the Königstiger could) or in an arc ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They drive in arcs, but right now they "pivot" in place when firing (Puma is the only one in now that can do this). We are planning of fixing this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(5) Yet another topic: Will the user interface display hit and kill probabilities

(preferably in percent ) when I aim at an enemy vehicle ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already does. This info is tagged to the mouse for either the LOS or Targeting lines. Here is an example of the data you see:

Sherman M4 Jumbo

1253 meters

Hit Probablity: 58%

Kill Chance: Low

Note the difference between the last two. This means that I have almost a 2 in 3 chance of hitting the vehicle, but a low chance of actually knocking it out. The second stat is not a percentage because the chance of a kill is HIGHLY variable, so such a stat would be misleading.

If you have identified the vehicle you can access its detailed stats. By comparing your unit's stats to the targets you have all the info you need to figure out WHY the mouse info says what says.

Steve

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On the topic of pushing AT guns and lots of other related stuff from a first hand account try: http://library.virtualave.net/memory3.html

Its the East Front but I guess some of the principles still apply here. Quote:"Well, how can you have closed position in street fighting? You’re just rolling your gun down the street. The assault groups: infantry,

76mm gun, and a tank. The mission is the building, help the infantry to get it. We’re opening on the basement windows: this is

where the German guys with panzerfausts would be. So we’re getting them out of there. We would not spare the ammo.."

Simon

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