Russian Sniper Team

[Vark]

Russian teams should both be armed with sniper rifles, with the second sniper ready for a follow up shot, if required.

[YankeeDog]

oftenly enough, the bored spotter chooses his own targets and makes survivability a more serious affair. At least it´s oftenly so in CMBN.

This was changed, I thought for CMBN 2.2x, but definitely for CMRT 3.0; sniper team escorts now only open fire at very close range or under duress. In a current game, I have two Russian sniper teams that have been happily plinking away at a bunch of Germans in a trench ~250m away for more than 5 minutes, and the spotters (armed with rifles) haven't fired a single shot.

Reducing the teams to one man might increase stealth, but it also halves the number of eyes available for spotting. I don't have much trouble keeping my 2-man sniper teams concealed, so even if they don't have binos I'll take the extra pair of eyes, thank you very much.

As for both soldiers in a Russian sniper team typically having scoped rifles, color me skeptical. Maybe for for high-end recon/spetznaz sniper teams, but if the run-of-the-mill platoon and company-level sniper teams had this additional glass, it would further increase the amounts of optical glass in Russian infantry units to far above what Soviet wartime production levels suggest was possible -- See JasonC's post above.

[LukeFF]

As for both soldiers in a Russian sniper team typically having scoped rifles, color me skeptical. Maybe for for high-end recon/spetznaz sniper teams, but if the run-of-the-mill platoon and company-level sniper teams had this additional glass, it would further increase the amounts of optical glass in Russian infantry units to far above what Soviet wartime production levels suggest was possible -- See JasonC's post above.

No, that's not really the case. For one, most wartime photos show Russian snipers operating in pairs, and then there's this:

I was enlisted in the 585th Rifle Regiment of the 213th Novo-Ukrainskaia Rifle Division. Actually, the division was being formed anew. An arranging and knitting together process was going on. Several experienced officers explained to us what and how should we act in different combat situations. I think that was the real beginning of our being in front-line forces.

There were three rifle companies and one machine gun copany in a rifle battalion. The main armament of a rifle company were rifles. Two snipers were supposed to be in each rifle company. Thus, I already knew my company but I can't remember its number for the life of me. The other sniper of our company was Volodia Churikov or Chumikov…

http://english.iremember.ru/snipers/24-nikolai-nadolko.html?q=%2Fsnipers%2F24-nikolai-nadolko.html&start=2

So, six snipers per battalion.

And from the same interview:

At the front snipers usually act in couples but in the school we were taught individually. When you are at the front they give you a fellow sniper. As a rule, the experienced sniper receives a green one.

http://english.iremember.ru/snipers/24-nikolai-nadolko.html?q=%2Fsnipers%2F24-nikolai-nadolko.html&start=1

So, unless there is info to the contrary, Russian sniper teams by default should consist of both men having a scoped rifle and having the Marksman trait.

[YankeeDog]

So, unless there is info to the contrary, Russian sniper teams by default should consist of both men having a scoped rifle and having the Marksman trait.

Taken in concert with other sources, first person accounts can be useful, but by themselves, first person accounts are a notoriously unreliable source of information.

Soviet TOEs, both on paper and in implementation, also varied a lot from time period to time period and also from front to front so you have to know exactly what time range and region you're dealing with to make any useful comparisons between first person accounts and official TOEs.

But regardless, I don't actually have issue with what the source you cite describes. The source seems to indicate the presence of just one (double) sniper team at the rifle Company level, and none at the platoon level. This would mean (as you note) six snipers (organized in pairs) per rifle battalion, all with scoped rifles. Six rifle scopes per rifle battalion is within the possible range when compared to the rifle scope production figures JasonC cites.

But what CM currently depicts is twelve sniper teams per rifle battalion; one per rifle platoon, and another three attached directly to the rifle company HQs. It's simply not possible that all of these teams could have two scopes/team. Maybe the TOE as the game depicts it has too many sniper teams, and the platoon-level teams should be eliminated from the game. Or maybe the platoon "sniper" teams were lower priority in training and equipment allotment, and typically didn't have any scoped rifles, while the Company teams did actually have two scopes/team. I have no idea. But universal two scopes/team *and* 12 teams/battalion is not possible. Just not enough scopes.

[LukeFF]

Taken in concert with other sources, first person accounts can be useful, but by themselves, first person accounts are a notoriously unreliable source of information.

That's why I gave more than one source.

Or maybe the platoon "sniper" teams were lower priority in training and equipment allotment, and typically didn't have any scoped rifles,

Highly unlikely. Well before the war began, the Russians had a well-developed sniper program and trained their snipers to at least the same standard as the Germans were doing (there really was no such thing as Designated Marksmen in the WW2-era Red Army). Everyone that went through sniper training went through the same training program, so in theory everyone was trained to the same standard. To add to that, the M91/30 is a pretty good sniper platform, so it wasn't as if they were being issued substandard equipment. The skill and experience of each sniper, of course, varied.

[Vinnart]

You had tools to mill the metal?

In my day, we had to eat the metal and excrete the bullet, using nothing but our sphincter muscles to create the proper aerodynamic shape.

LMAO! thanks for the laugh. Some other clever good ones on here too.

[YankeeDog]

Highly unlikely. Well before the war began, the Russians had a well-developed sniper program and trained their snipers to at least the same standard as the Germans were doing (there really was no such thing as Designated Marksmen in the WW2-era Red Army). Everyone that went through sniper training went through the same training program, so in theory everyone was trained to the same standard. To add to that, the M91/30 is a pretty good sniper platform, so it wasn't as if they were being issued substandard equipment. The skill and experience of each sniper, of course, varied.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting... that the platoon sniper teams in CMRT remain in the TOE, be of reasonable quality (i.e., trained marksman speciality) but not have scopes, while the Company-level team be of good quality AND have two scopes?

Remember, not enough scopes to have 4 x 2-man sniper teams/Rifle Company AND give each team two scopes, at least not as the default. To equip even the majority of Red Army rifle formations this way would require significantly more scopes than the Soviets produced during the war.

Another thought: The first person accounts you cited seem to indicate that the Soviet sniper teams were organized as a sort of Teacher-Apprentice arrangement, with a trained but less experienced sniper in the assistant role paired with a more experienced lead sniper. CMx2 can't exactly model this -- all soldiers within a team must be of the same quality in CMx2 so there's no way to make one man in a team, say, Veteran, while the other guy is only Regular or Green. As such, I think you can argue that removing the "Marksman" specialty from the second man in the sniper team, and not giving him a scope, is a reasonable fudge to represent this kind of thing.

[JasonC]

I note that LukeFF's 6 per battalion / 2 per company matches my production-based estimates pretty much exactly. I also note that the figure twice as high could easily arise just from confusion or different practices as to whether the teams were assigned downward or kept pooled 1 level higher - anyone who expects to see both would arrive at twice the real figure.

[YankeeDog]

I note that LukeFF's 6 per battalion / 2 per company matches my production-based estimates pretty much exactly. I also note that the figure twice as high could easily arise just from confusion or different practices as to whether the teams were assigned downward or kept pooled 1 level higher - anyone who expects to see both would arrive at twice the real figure.

Good point; it could be 6 teams/Battalion, organized on paper at the Company or even Battalion level, but often assigned down to the Platoon level, based on where they were most needed. Easy to see how that could lead to confusion...

[LukeFF]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting... that the platoon sniper teams in CMRT remain in the TOE, be of reasonable quality (i.e., trained marksman speciality) but not have scopes, while the Company-level team be of good quality AND have two scopes?

No, what I'm suggesting is make the sniper TOE be: one 2-man team per company. If the player / scenario designer wants to add more than that, that's of course up to them.

Another thought: The first person accounts you cited seem to indicate that the Soviet sniper teams were organized as a sort of Teacher-Apprentice arrangement, with a trained but less experienced sniper in the assistant role paired with a more experienced lead sniper. CMx2 can't exactly model this -- all soldiers within a team must be of the same quality in CMx2 so there's no way to make one man in a team, say, Veteran, while the other guy is only Regular or Green. As such, I think you can argue that removing the "Marksman" specialty from the second man in the sniper team, and not giving him a scope, is a reasonable fudge to represent this kind of thing.

Possibly a better idea would be to make the team Regular skill level by default, give both men scoped Mosins, but give the Marksman specialty only to the first man. It wouldn't be without precedent, as there are many formations in CMFI and CMBN that have men with scoped rifles who are not also tagged with the Marksman speciality.