Riesburg Defence, darn it.

[Guest PeterNZ]

Played or playing Riesburg in four games.

I've one won, winning two others (all as USA) and lost one as the Germans against Yackstock.

Now I'm going to play him again to see if i can beat him as the US.

I have to say that it's a damn damn tough map to defend. Playing Yakstock i managed to take out one tank and should maybe have got another with average luck, (no kill hits on about 5 shots of ps and pf fire at a tank or two over various periods in the game).

Well anyway, i had a good defence i think. Infantry and mg's not in the front row, snuck some soldiers up the left flank and surprised some of his inf. Lots of good 81mm shell hits on his men as well as a 81mm placed on a flank he was attacking from, (got spotted by too many inf early tho )

Yet still i got nailed. anyone succeed somehow? Seems that the US can place a lot of pressure on points that are relatively hard to cover and defend. And unfortunately once they're into the town, I've found it very hard to stop them. Just so many of them, even tho your men are smg equipped.

What are other peoples experiences here. And taking all the enemies tanks out with the 88's doesn't count since most people can avoid that problem through not doing the obvious, (Yakstock was unlucky to loose even one tank).

so ideas !?

PeterNZ

[Fionn]

Why are you sitting back in defence?

If a conventional defence won't work then implement an unconventional defence...

The aim is to win, not to conduct a good defence. There is a difference

I'm PBEMing this as a German defender so I'm not going to go into more detail... MY opponent reads the board.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Rick]

I've won Riesburg against the AI, every time, on both sides. Last Defense, I would say my average is about 25%. Great ambushes and flanking moves will win the Riesburg defense.

Despite all this ask Fionn? I'm not that great.

[Darstand]

I played only against the AI. Once on both side. Total Victory for me both times. They Key for both sides is to take out the big guns. The Tanks or AT guns got to go first.

As Germans I hid my troops until they were VERY close. I let my AT guns fire at will. As Americans I used the Inf. to flush out the AT guns. Hiding my tanks behind trees until they showed themselves. Then hunted very carfully. I did not lose 1 tank (except one was immobilized) Good Luck and good hunting!

[Bil Hardenberger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm PBEMing this as a German defender so I'm not going to go into more detail... MY opponent reads the board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on Fionn, let us in on some of your secret "..best defense is an offense.." techniques. I'd love to hear them.

[Fionn]

Says Bill whose Sherman convoy (I swear, 4 Shermans in line ahead) happened to crest a hill as my counter-attacking infantry platoon was advancing on the other side of the hill.

Much HE fire later my platoon was on the run and my counter-offensive was pretty much over

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Bil Hardenberger]

Paraphrasing Patton:

...the way to defeat firepower is with superior firepower...

[Fionn]

Yeah but Patton was a bit simplistic sometimes.

The way to defeat firepower is to apply more firepower AT THAT POINT IN TIME AND SPACE.

TIME and SPACE are important military concepts. Time in combat has a bearing on ammunition reserves and firepower and space gives one the ability to use maneuvre to defeat an enemy piecemeal by applying more firepower in small areas whilst the enemy has a greater firepower overall.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Bil Hardenberger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The way to defeat firepower is to apply more firepower AT THAT POINT IN TIME AND SPACE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course Fionn. Having superior firepower in a place and time other than where it's needed doesn't do you any good does it?

I think Patton would have said.. "...%&$@* that was a *$%# given, you &@^$^%( $&^(#@!"

Would you not say that I had superior firepower.. (let's see, how did you put it?)"AT THAT POINT IN TIME AND SPACE" I believe I understand the concept.

note: that was Patton talking not me

[This message has been edited by Bil Hardenberger (edited 11-06-99).]

[scoop88]

Played two full games of Riesburg vs. the AI as the Americans and won a minor victory each time. It seems the best way to win is to apply massive firepower and overwhelming strength in one sudden blow. Put as much infantry on the tanks as possible, hide them, hit the town with arty while the rest of the infantry moves down either side of the road (with one platoon on each far flank advancing as well to ferret out any Germans hiding in the woods), then have the tanks swing out, pour in smoke shells, and drive like hell into the town, firing all the way. Unload the infantry as close as possible to the town, have one platoon assault each strong point while the tanks and the other platoons pour in cover fire, and move through the town as fast as possible. I haven't perfected the technique yet -- I'm still a little too slow and cautious assaulting the strongpoints with the infantry, hence I keep getting only minor victories. But this seems like the best approach.

Can't comment on the German strategy until I've played them few times, but I like the earlier post in this thread where they hide and hold their fire until they can't miss. Again, that's another way of saying applying massive force in one violent stroke.

[Guest PeterNZ]

i'd never bother doing that.

Much easier is to sweep up the right flank with two platoons, and three tanks. One tank in the middle with a third platoon and a big support section of mortars, mg's, the spotter and so on.

I keep one platoon and a few support bits and pieces out left and move them carefully to keep an eye on things.

Easy as pie. three tanks up the right hand side can flatten about everything and then rush the inf. in under smoke

PeterNZ

[Webs]

As an attacker, I've had most success in Riesberg hanging back with my tanks under cover and moving the infantry up to spot the guns. Once I know where they are, I use mortars and arty to take them out. If that fails, the bazookas work fine too.

Takes a while to develop, but once the guns are gone, it's a cakewalk.

What's nice is that there's a spot just behind the hill on the US right where you can park a tank that can pound the MG nests in town yet remain invisible to the 88s.

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Laurie Nyveen a.k.a. Webs, member of the WarBirds training staff

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Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html

101 Sqn opus-in-progress - http://101.warbirds.org/

[Guest PeterNZ]

I don't bother taking out the guns until maybe the very end. You can pretty easily avoid them by being carefull and still have an impressive assault. Ask Yakstock how many houses are left on the right flank in the game i'm playing against him now hehe

PeterNZ

[guachi]

Ron,

Care to post any ideas on how to defend Riesberg?

I won't read them. Honest.

BTW, Ron and I are playing a PBEM game with Ron as the Germans.

MY first and only go as the Germans was against the AI. I set up my units in reasonable defensive positions and let the US come to its doom. Had all four Shermans knocked out by turn 7. That pretty much ended the American's hopes of victory. 10 more turns of a vicious firefight and then I sent my units out to mop up.

As for winning as the Americans. Well, I'm in the middle of playing my first game. As mentioned above, it's a PBEM against. I don't think either of us could say who is winning right now. Way too early.

Spotting the enemy is, I think, the key. There are so many LOS obstructions that trying to figure out a good vantage point ahead of time without your unit actually being there is quite difficult.

Jason

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-07-99).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Well I am a firm member of the 'Sweep the right flank club". All four tanks with a full platoon, .30 cal and spotter mounted with another platoon sprinting ahead (hey, who cares if they are "Weary" ) I can take the to buildings in the German rear the same turn the German reinforcements arrive generally. That pretty much seals the fate of the Germans. The first game I played an 88 was set up in the woods on this flank...luckly it fired at an infantry squad that was "RUNNING" ahead. Cost me a half squad, but that is why they were there.

I use the rest to press forward in the center and left. I don't think this is really needed for the AI but against a human it would be or they would quickly shift the resources over to the threaten flank.

I don't know about the other strategies...hanging back and 'looking for the two 88s'. If the scenario was 'blind' you would not even know the enemy had 88s, let alone 2 and only two. The first time I played it I was unaware of them.

As for defense, I think the AI setups it does are pretty good. Except perhaps a little weak on its left flank (the same one I attack--US right).

If you want a more of a challenge: Do what I just tired. Set up the 88s so that they are in the two WORST spots. Then have them pivot 180 and face away from the Shermans and start firing at some empty spot...thus effectively removing them from the battle, can't use them for the entire battle. Now hold the town without them. I have tried it only once and managed a minor victory. But I think my 'schrek team was pretty lucky got 3 kills on its first (and only) four shots. Took a LONG time to get that last damn Sherman though...

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Ron]

Hey Jason, to be most effective as the US send all four Shermans loaded with a platoon down the road straight into the village and start blasting. That'll overcome any German designs on a sound defense.

Seriously though, the Germans are weak on their left flank. The 88 on the hill is blind there and the platoon/HMG WILL fold under moderate pressure. A passive defense may work if you're lucky, but anyone playing wouldn't base their plans on luck. The Germans need to plan their attacks and firelanes carefully because they are green/regulars who don't stand up to pressure very long.I would follow Fionn's advice and try an unconventional defense.

I'm currently playing two email games as the Germans. The one with Jason is just starting to develop. The other against Beamup is at the critical point and has seesawed back and forth. I've felt strongly twice that it was all over then something happens and I'm back in it. He has gained a foothold in the village and I am busy manouvering and counter-attacking trying to push him out. It has become a brutal, bloody slugfest. Contrary to what has been written on another post the SMG squads are very effective at close range, they've kept me in it so far.

By the way BTS, great game!

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[Fionn]

Well, it's pretty much over now so I can post my defence..

I decided to outflank the US force

I sent one platoon down the right and one down the left (US right0>

The platoon on my left got massacred by the Sherman convoy but a combined assault by the German platoon which outflanked widely on the right and the platoon to the right of the main road went in against 3 US platoons. Basically, at this stage most of the US support weapons and 2 platoons have been wiped out. 1 platoon made it into a building in the village but it is completely cut off from ALL other US forces.

my casualties have been heavy but, at this stage I think we're now even in infantry and he has 3 tanks left (which I'll kill soon enough )

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest PeterNZ]

I also sent a platoon down the left, but it got spotted and the ps and all the pf shots missed and a tank and some inf stood off and took the platoon appart.

annoyingly, the inf wouldn't fire their pf at the tank, i'd target it (some 30m away, if that) and they'd instantly decide to fire rifles at an enemy platoon some 100m away. Result, infantry die to slow and sure HE shots )

but was a good plan i agree

if i was a bit more patient, might have pulled it off too, still unsure how much the bad guys can see which means i'm often uncautious cos i think i've been spotted anyway. Time to do a hotseat against myself and see.

[Beamup]

Actually to comment on Ron's post... I'm not sure he knew this yet, but two ambushes he laid each wiped out a full platoon, while I didn't even get to shoot back. Tactical suggestion - if you ever want to give somebody a really nasty surprise, move some squads away from the front wall of a house and hide them... when somebody charges in to take the house, they get blown away. I can attest from sad experience that it works (though it took like 15 minutes to figure out what had happened to my platoon).

[Herr Oberst]

Yup, yup, yup. Those MG34 and esp. MG42 can chop straight through interior walls of most structures. That was the favorite defensive tactic inside the church in CC1 in the Off the Beach scenario. Hide way at the back, and hose em down when they get inside the windows.

[guachi]

One of my Shermans was immobolized by MG fire at a range of about 350m. At least, Ron said it was an MG.

I had Ron's 88 on the hill spotted on about turn 5 or 6. I don't think Ron knew this or they would have been fired on way earlier. Due to the vagaries of LOS, one squad had a clear LOS to it but the squads just meters on either side couldn't.

In Riesberg, one of the keys is spotting units. Spotting the 88 so early made it easier to move units into a firing position. It would have been an enormous benefit if I didn't already know the Germans had an 88.

Jason

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I'm a firm believer in fighting where I want to fight not where the cpu wants to fight.

In Reisberg as the Germans, I sent all my infantry up to the woods in the center at each side of the road in heavy woods. There are gullies there forcing the US infantry to get really close to spot you. With a high concentration of axis forces in the woods, US forces are killed piece meal. US armor manouvering to support is taken out by 88s.

The axis infantry in the woods will eventually be killed due to the large US infantry prescence. However enough time will be bought to allow the german follow up reinforcements to deploy to the houses in the front of the village.

Once your forces in the woods are finally over run , the steam will have been taken out of the US push. No US tanks should be left and you will have your reinforcements in houses at the edge of town to take on the remnants of the US force.

I won as the axis with a total victory and killed all US vehicles and killed 3 times as many US troops as I had lost.

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 11-11-99).]

[guachi]

My PBEM game as the Americans is about over and I will more than likely win. And I won by being a complete coward.

I don't think I put a tank within 150m of any German units. One tank was destroyed on turn one by the 88 and another was immobilized several turns later.

I sent one platoon up the middle through the trees on either side of the road and sat it there. I sent one platoon wide left (American left) and parked them in some woods. I sent another platoon wide right with orders to come up from behind the hill. The last platoon was held back in reserve. Two tanks on the left and two on the right. The two on the left were the ones destroyed and immobilized.

The objective was to flush out enemy units and destroy them piecemeal. Also I wanted to extend the German defense as much as possible and force him to redeploy. By doing so, I also hoped to spot the units that moved.

If you look at the map, all the objectives but one are in the rear of the town. Why bother fighting all the way through the town? I intended to flank the town and enter from the sides.

I used my Shermans to systematically reduce the town. The wooden buildings in the first row went first because they blocked LOS to the stone buildings in the rear of town. I took out the 88 in town with a Sherman. The other was spotted by my reserve platoon with the 105mm spotter attached to it and I called arty fire down on the 88. One of my units (I don't know which) saw some movement on my left which helped me pinpoint one German platoon. I marched the reserve platoon over to help the platoon already on the left wipe the Germans out. After the 88 was destroyed and the mortar was out of ammo, I assaulted with the two platoons on the left and wiped out the German platoon and started to march towards the town.

I sent the platoon on the right (which had been shot up a bit by a MG and the 88 in town) down the hill and was going to move towards the wooden buildings near the wheatfield. After a few turns I withdrew a Sherman to follow the platoon for support. I saw ever so briefly a couple of German units move form the buildings to the woods. I had no intention of going through the woods but instead I was going to swing way wide and attack the two story stone objective building using the wooden buildings by the wheatfield as a jumping off point. In any event, I stopped and backtracked to attack the platoon. I lost my HQ and over half the platoon is casualties, but I took out the German platoon.

The platoon in the middle and the reserve platoon that arrives aroun turn 10 assaulted from the front and are doing final mop up on the remaining Germans.

It was Turn 23 before I had even set foot inside the town.

Lessons learned:

Don't put mortars on tanks. They'll abandon their weapon if they come under fire.

Support fire from the Shermans is incredibly powerful. It enabled me to stand off and pound the German defenses. I had my Shermans firing almost continuously and they will still have HE shells when the game is over.

Spotting is crucial. I had very minimal visual contact with the Germans. But all it took was seeing a squad or two for a few seconds to pinpoint the location of the enemy.

Combat at <100m is over quickly. One German platoon was wiped out in about a minute. The other lasted about 3.

German squads are very fragile. I was quite stunned at how fast the German units disintegrated. Their experience was probably a large factor.

Green units suck. A green squad of mine took one casualty from either an 88 or a mortar and promptly panicked. A veteran squad ran right into an unseen German squad, saw its HQ vanish, lost 9 guys in one minute and managed to rally itself by the end of the next turn.

Coordinating units is not easy. It took me forever to get my attack going because I couldn't get all of my units where I wanted them soon enough.

Jason

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-12-99).]