Guest Big Time Software Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 For some odd reason there were two threads within the last two days questioning MG/Small Arms lethality accuracy in CM. So, instead of just defending the way CM works , and totally accepting the overall thumbs up from our testers, I decided to do a "scientific" test to see if: 1) To what degree small arms, particularly the MG, are lethal 2) If the lethality is realistic (especially compared to other games) I made 8 US Rifle Squads ('44 Pattern) attack in two different circumstances. The first was against HMGs, the second was against a Wehrmacht Schützen Squads ('44 Pattern). All units were Regular. In all cases the US squad started out in Heavy Woods and was ordered to Move to the edge and then Run for 60m across open (flat) ground to a building. Inside the building, on the second floor, there were 4 German units of the same type. The situation was set up so that only one German unit was able to shoot at one US squad at a time (one for each side of the building). Ambush markers were used, along with the clear flat terrain and height advantage, to make sure the Germans got MAXIMUM opportunity to shoot at their intended target. In other words, even though the assaulting distance was relatively short, the German units had ideal shooting conditions and an utter lack of suppressing fire. I noted ending casualties, condition, and max meters gained. I did not note meters lost (i.e. running away), nor did I pay attention to German casualties taken while the US fired on the run or once they got inside the building. If a unit made it into the building I looked at what the unit was like at the time it made it in, not what happened to it afterwards. However, units that did not make it into the building have their ending status recorded, so this reflects what happened to the unit while retreating. At the end of about 65 seconds all units were either in the building, back in the woods, or eliminated. I ran the test twice (4 of each circumstance per "game"), but one of the HMGs was positioned too far back into the building and NEVER got LOS to its target. Here are the results: US Squad vs. HMG42 (read: casualties/ending status/max meters gained) ------------------ Unit 1 -> 3/Panic/0m Unit 2 -> 5/Routed/20m Unit 3 -> 7/Broken/10m Unit 4 -> 1/Shaken/60m - This unit made it into the building. The German unit dropped the ball Unit 5 -> 5/Panic/10m Unit 6 -> 3/Pinned/5m Unit 7 -> Disqualified as one HMG was too far back and didn't spot the enemy Unit 8 -> Disqualified as one HMG was too far back and didn't spot the enemy US Squad vs. WH Squad (read: casualties/ending status/max meters gained) ------------------ Unit 1 -> 6/Broken/50m Unit 2 -> 7/Broken/30m Unit 3 -> 12/Eliminated/58m Unit 4 -> 12/Eliminated/40m Unit 5 -> 8/Pinned/20m Unit 6 -> 9/Routed/50m Unit 7 -> 3/Routed/10m Unit 8 -> 4/Shaken/60m - The unit in fact surrendered upon entering Conclusion -> small arms lethality, and unit behavior, checks out very well. In only 3 out of the 14 cases did a US unit actually make it the full 60m to the building. The US suffered 85 casualties, or just about 50% casualties, in about one minute of combat. 8 out of 14 cases didn't make it more than 50% of the way to their destination, and 5 didn't even make it more than a short 10m! 11 out of 14 units were no longer in control of the player when the test for each unit ended. In only *one* case did a US unit make it to the building in good order due to some fluke luck where the HMG unit opposing it basically missed on practically every shot. Final Observations -> the US units going up against the HMGs suffered fewer casualties (33%) than the ones going up against squads (63%). This makes sense because the HMG is just one single weapon, where as a WH Squad has 9 armed men (6 Kar98k, 2 MP40, 1 LMG42). HOWEVER, note that the average distance covered by the squads going up against the HMGs was substantially less. Only 1 in 6 (16%) made it more than 50% of the way to the building, as opposed to 6 in 8 (75%) against the squads. This shows that the HMG has a greater fear factor, and therefore units are less likely to charge and die than against a squad. The main reason is that usually the US squad lost 2-3 men on the first burst of HMG fire upon exiting the woods, where it took a little longer for casualties to mount against the German squads. And since the US units going against the HMGs fled instead of advancing, they were exposed to less enemy fire than the others. Final Thoughts -> Everything seems to be pretty peachy to me Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-26-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 THanks for posting that I enjoyed reading the info. Very informative and helps to keep in mind, the things we dont always consider during the heat of battle. SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 That really sounds credible to me. At so short ranges the assaulteams ambushing should get in more kills that's logic but what would happen in 200 - 300 meters with guys running in the open ? Nice test btw [This message has been edited by howardb (edited 11-26-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Brown Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Beaten Zones and Grazing Fire?? A major characteristic of MG fire. A primary consideration in siting them. Doesn't appear to be modelled? A further related matter. Penalties for shooting through/over/past friendly units. For battlefield commanders, not shooting your own guys is probably a greater consideration than bringing effective fire down on the enemy. A major consideration in coordinating defensive positions AND assaults. Also does not seem to be modelled? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Friendly fire IS modelled. It's modelling in the beta demo isn't complete though. In the full game if you happen to run through a friendly MG stream you will know about it There was a big discussion about beaten zones and grazing fire recently but I forget the outcome and explanation from BTS so I'm going to leave that one lie. Hope that helps clear up at least one of the points Andy. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKHORSE_C16 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 BTS Why would 4 squads rush across an open area without supporting fire? First, at most a halfteam with a few grenades would gain entry under concealment of smoke, while the other squads provide security and supporting fire. I guess I'm confused. Does your test show dumb maneuvers will be dealt with accordingly or will a platoon performing the proper TTP(tactics,techniques, and procedures) will get hammered any? Thanks ahead of time, as BTS is so timely. ------------------ Allons!! [This message has been edited by BLACKHORSE_C16 (edited 11-26-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Blackhorse -- I thought those squad assaults were simply a reality check to see whether the game was reasonably simulating the effects of small arms fire. After playing the US in Last Defense, I went through all my units to see how many casualties each had inflicted. My TDs had all the armor kills, the best one getting the Tiger, a STUG, and 2 half tracks (= 1 whole track?) As for my infantry units, the best result by far was achieved by a 1/2 squad I'd left in the flagged building next to the woods: 18 Kraut infantry casualties! Nobody else, MG or squad, had more than 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Blackhorse -- I thought those squad assaults were simply a reality check to see whether the game was reasonably simulating the effects of small arms fire. After playing the US in Last Defense, I went through all my units to see how many casualties each had inflicted. My TDs had all the armor kills, the best one getting the Tiger, a STUG, and 2 half tracks (= 1 whole track?) As for my infantry units, the best result by far was achieved by a 1/2 squad I'd left in the flagged building next to the woods: 18 Kraut infantry casualties! Nobody else, MG or squad, had more than 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 "After playing the US in Last Defense, I went through all my units to see how many casualties each had inflicted." <HR WIDTH="70%" ALIGN="CENTER"> MOS, how do you do that? [This message has been edited by Matt (edited 11-27-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyland Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Hey Matt At any time during the scenario, just click on a unit and hit the enter key. A black box with firepower stats will appear in the right upperhand corner. Within the top right corner of that black box is a little white box with "info" on the top and "kills" on the bottom. Press "kills". In fact you can do this with the remaining enemy troops at the end of a battle as well. It is kind of exciting jumping between your squads and finding somebody who accounted for 23 casualties (my high for an infantry group). Also interesting is all those HMG's you use for suppression: Probably no more than 1-2 casualties per HMG. Scary, huh? ------------------ For the last time, you don't need antibiotics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 My high. Last Defence. One SS Motorised Panzergrenadier squad killed 56 US soldiers and captured 6. It suffered 4 casualties though and was LOW on ammo by about turn 9 That's 1.4 kills per burst of fire. Needless to say I was quite happy with it's performance . MGs keep heads down. Riflemen kill. Simple rule. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Blackhorse, the example was just to show small arms lethality against a unit running in the open in a charging situation. As you say, and as CM shows, such a charge is suicide. That was the point of the demonstration Some people were suggesting that CM's small arms weren't lethal enough (one thought Close Combat's was more realistic). Problem was that they had other factors involved that made the fire less effective. Like suppression for example Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKHORSE_C16 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 O.K. Steve, I was just thinking that regardless some element would have to charge up to the house, but I see your point. Thanks ------------------ Allons!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted November 28, 1999 Share Posted November 28, 1999 In the afteraction debrief I would like to see how all my units performed, if you think it takes away all realism they can just report the knowns/probables. Sometimes you get good clues as to how to use specific units. Maybe it's already in the final ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 29, 1999 Share Posted November 29, 1999 Howard, it is already in. When the battle ends you can view the battlefield. Click on a unit, hit the "Return" key, then click on "Kills". This shows what the unit took out to the best of its knowledge. Use the +/- keys to quickly go from unit to unit. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted November 29, 1999 Share Posted November 29, 1999 Yes but I was more thinking about a schematic overview after the battle on all men involved, dead and alive. But then again I guess dead men tell no tales, unless they're just incapacited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Good point Well, it certainly isn't anything that is going to make it into the initial release, but it is something we shall keep in mind for the future. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Thanks for the test. I guess the supression is the key. (or maybe the build you have) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Killmore, yes... suppression is KING of the battlefield, even more so than maneuver (the other important tactical skill). The side that masters the art of suppression can afford to screw up unit movement to some degree, but excellent movement without proper suppression is likely to cause excessive casualties and broken units. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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