Tactics for CM

[Johan Brittz]

Found the thread re counter ambush techniques below quite interesting.

Won't the grogs (or any-one for that matter) educate us lesser mortals by detailing some more tactic used somewhere in a game or real life which we might be able to use in CM. Maybe list the obvious ones first for the newbies and then the more obscure, lesser used ones for interest sake.

Anything to soften the ANGUISH OF WAITING

[Ken Talley]

Hi Johan,

The number one tactic that I tried to use in both the Steel Panthers series and West Front was to know where my opponent was concentrated as quickly as possible. And at the same time, I didn't want to allow my opponent to know where I was concentrated and my objectives- at least until it was too late. This tactic involved making maximum use of terrain for masking troop concentrations and movement. Basically my number one objective is to win the recce game.

The number two tactic on offense was to maintain a massed force for attack. I tried not to attack in driblets. I would try to have a maneuver force with the strength to very, very quickly annihilate small enemy forces and yet could hold its own against larger enemy forces. Although massing did not necessarily mean physically massed. Widely separated forces can still mass firepower if good lines of sight are available.

I am sure these same types of tactics will work with CM. I think it will be more difficult to coordinate though with the movement and command systems of CM vs SP or WF. Should be fun learning though.

Ken

[This message has been edited by Ken Talley (edited 10-24-99).]

[Thorsten]

I'm no expert on tactics by any means, but I can say what I know. Basically there are two general thoughts on both strategy and tactics, those of attrition and those of maneuver. Attrition warfare tries to grind down an enemy by taking him on head to head. Maneuver warfare tries to get into the enemy's rear areas to disrupt unit cohesion, supply lines, etc. and destroy the enemy piecemeal. Usually, most battles end up being a combination of the two.

Standard practice for the US since WWII has been attrition warfare. It was used in the pacific theater, the Korean war, and failingly in the Vietnam war. Soviet strategy was more maneuver based. For example, if a commander had two units, one was close to being overrun, and the other was pushing through and advancing into the enemy's rear area, standard practice was to reinforce the unit pushing through, and NOT the unit that was struggling. As for Germany, well they invented the modern version of maneuver warfare.

How does this apply to Combat Mission? Well, let's take a look at the AARs. Fionn's theme in attack seemed to be one of attrition. He methodically destroyed all of Moon's advance units. He never allowed any of Moon's forces to be behind his main force. There were areas where he could have applied maneuver warfare, the most obvious of which is when he raced his halftrack through and behind enemy lines. If he wanted to pursue this course of action, he could have brought in supporting fire to fix the bazooka teams that fired on him, and sent the rest of his halftracks through a few at a time. Keep in mind, though, that one shouldn't advance through to rear areas without a plan in mind. We don't know if the area where his lone halftrack went to could have supported a large break-out force since Fionn never tested this strategy. One has to remember that the point of maneuver warfare is to break up and surround your enemy, not to get your own troops surrounded.

Another place in the AARs where this could have conceivably worked was during the endgame. Fionn had a fairly large force in the southern woods that he brought north to reinforce his other units. He could have sent them all the way west, then brought them north while his panzer and two halftracks suppressed the machine gunners in the southern buildings. Then once his infantry was there, he could have raced both of his halftracks west (instead of just the one) and they could have attacked the western-most buildings while his forces around the blockhouse fixed Moon's units with suppression fire.

These are just examples, mind you. I can't tell simply by looking at the AARs whether these would have worked or not.

Thorsten

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Good points guys. Basically, don't believe everything you see. Look at the big picture and attack where winning affects other areas of the battle. If a small engagement will not affect the outcome, why have it? Let sleeping dogs lie. If you see the enemy in a spot where he is not opposing your general plan, leave him alone and go for the big kill.

Finally, kick ass and take no names.

[Moon]

Ken-

CMs unique spotting system will allow you to recreate the tactics you mentioned extremly accurately! Fog of War is a mighty weapon in CM and works for or against both sides.

And as you are suspecting yourself - yes, coordination will be more difficult in CM, given its real time action turns, as you will have to preplan all moves for one minute in advance and cannot (unrealistically) move one unit at a time. Mastering this aspect of CM (as in real life) is going to be one of the key points to winning battles!

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>massing did not necessarily mean physically massed. Widely separated forces can still mass firepower if good lines of sight are available<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. You are fighting to get the positions with the best line of sight. You want control of concealed avenues of approach. Your units should be able to support each other quickly. Once the 'recce game' is over, the side that has the most control of the above points will be able to 'pour' on the force first and with greater power than the opponent.

Not bad for a C&C general eh?

[Ken Talley]

A couple of quick terrain tips.

Study the terrain closely before the game.

-Note road junctions that allow you to present threats in several directions.

-Use concealment as much as possible to prevent your opponent from knowing your strength and true objectives.

-Hold or take positions that give you long ranges of visibility with scouting teams.

-Back sides of ridges are made for reverse slope defense.

-Interior defenses of towns can be better than defending from the edges of towns because a larger enemy has difficult massing fire against your defenses.

I better stop now. I think I want to save a few tips for myself < >.

Ken

[Ken Talley]

Hi Moon,

The command control and simultaneous movement aspects really look exciting in CM. As you mentioned, with Steel Panthers and West Front, a lot of recce could be achieved with minimal risk due to movement of one unit at a time. Follow on units could then be moved based on the knowledge gained from the first units. It seems with CM that players will need to almost have phase lines of advance to coordinate timing and allow reorganization. It does sound that timing and coordination will be extremely important and probably difficult. I am really curious how difficult it is going to be to perform recce when attacking in CM and how much of an impact it has on speed of advance. If speed was essential, I guess a massed approach could be used with minimal scouting but I suspect it would really be a gamble considering the effectiveness of fire. Well I guess we will all find out shortly.

Ken

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>for myself<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saving the best for last?

[Moon]

Ken-

thinking in phase lines will really save your butt in CM, actually. One thing I learned from CM (clearer and... uhm... "bloodier" than in any other wargame before) is how important supressive fire, moving by bounds and all those real life tactics are.

The massed approach will be especially deadly in CM, because what might happen is that you lose a few tanks and some infantry, hear the shots that killed them, but never get to spot the enemy during the first turn. You can "guess" the location by listening closely to the direction the shot(s) came from, but that's about it. Only over the course of seconds or minutes (depending on the circumstances) will you be able to spot "something" (like Gun? or Infantry? or Tank?)...

[Ken Talley]

John, it's more fun to teach some lessons on the battlefield < >. And the ones I remember best are the ones used against me. If I can figure them out. Sometimes opponent's tactics are difficult to figure out even when it is all over when fog of war is used.

Someone to watch out for is Johan. I have never seen anyone learn as fast as him. Although we will be starting out on an even keel with CM.

Ken

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I wonder if CM has an option for watching the replay of all the turns with fog off *after* the game has ended?

[Apocal]

Will the reverse slope FT ambush still work?

Reverse Slope Flamethrower Ambush: In SP3 (the only game I have tried it) position a flamethrower unit (tank or engineer) on the slope of a hill facing away from the enemy (the slope, not your men). Wait till they come over the hill and as they do your unit will spot them close enough (1 hex) to use their flamethrowers on them.

I don't know if it is realistic or not, I just used it when I played SP3.

[Fionn]

Well, the FT reverse slope ambush will work once in that it will toast the first unit over the hill BUT then the enemy will go around your flanks and destroy the FT tank or unit with direct fire from outside of its range (thus the crafty player will use the FT unit as bait to try and draw enemy tanks and infantry OVER the hill to its flanks ready for some nice large-calibre HE main gun fire and HMG fire. )

Plans within plans within plans.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Apocal]

Hehe. Beware of the hill I hold, for, while it is easily taken, it is not easily escaped.

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."

Sir Winston Churchill

[CoolColJ]

I just love my reverse slope ambushes! SOmethinmg I read about the Russians doing a bit - its excellent, since your protected from the enemies LOS and hence direct fire. And a short range ambush from the other side of the hill is deadly. Nice belly shots and blue sky backdrop

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Homepage -

www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Beach/4448

[Fionn]

UNLESS the enemy goes for your flanks. In those cases your reverse slope defence is simply an easy way to allow him to sneak to your flanks.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Apocal]

My dear Fionn, that is what they created MASSIVE ARTILLERY BARRAGES for(sorry, I'm just now beginning to get good at HTML). Not to mention the fact that I always have a surprise for the unwary practictioner of flank tactics .

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."

Sir Winston Churchill

[SimonFox]

Now let me see...get out little black book, write: "apocal and coolcolJ likely to employ reverse slope defensive technique" and "liklehood of anyone charging over a crestline when playing them: before-remote, now-nil".

Fionn will probably be able to confirm this but I suspect that this approach will be significantly less rewarding in CM than in games with greater stepwise terrain increments furthermore the simultaneous turn execution is likely to induce considerable caution in the attacker.

[Apocal]

Oh I have about 14 defensives tactics (and like 4 different offensive ones) that I use on a regular basis, ranging from Soviet style "bombard the living crap outta them, and while the arty is still falling move in with tanks" to a more reasoned "bombard the living crap outta them, bombard some more, bombard again, then move in with jeeps cause thats all I could afford after buying arty".

Seriously though, I do have a motherlode of tactics, procedures, and doctrines on my computer, the reverse slope ambush family is just is just one of many.

To keep this on topic, here is another tactic I use. I call it the Fog of War Ambush. Note: this tactic only works if the game has good fog of war (like CM's fog of war). The best combat conditions to launch it in are woodlands areas at night (or in heavy fog).

Get a jeep and a AT gun (perferably the jeep tows the AT gun). Position them in the woods near a road or other chokepoint. When the enemy passes by, ignore the tanks and wait to fire on the half-tracks, jeeps, or other light skinned vehicle pass by, open fire with both the jeep's MG and the AT gun. After you have destroyed a few vehicles, run deeper into the woods and hide.

Now the poor sucker on the recieving has just lost between 1-3 vehicles and 5-12 men from (what looked like) a tank firing on his troops. If you were in that situation would YOU follow the tank deeper into the woods? Not if you are experienced, that tank is probably baiting you into a trap!

In the mean time you (the ambusher) are giggling your ass off while he (the ambushee) dismounts infantry into the woods to check for the "tank". If you are a REALLY talented commander you can ambush his infantry inside the woods and draw in even more of his infantry (if he actually moves in a tank, you are screwed), thus depriving his tanks of infantry (which is very bad).

And for those of you that are taking notes and seeing how I play, be forewarned. I don't fight by my own book.

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."

Sir Winston Churchill

[This message has been edited by Apocal (edited 10-25-99).]

[Guest PeterNZ]

don't be shy..

lets us in on a few secrets!

PeterNZ

[tgra]

Paper, scissors, stone anybody???

I'm still shaking with trepidation on what the AI is going to do to me as I have zero

(real) wargaming experience.

Was it Hamburger Hill when the bloke couldn't sleep 'cos he was worried about all the things he had to remember?

Is there a Ladybird book of WWII tactics anywhere?

Cheers

Tony

[Fionn]

Well Apocal I just find it funny sometimes what people come up with.

Sure your reverse slope ambush will work the first time BUT artillery isn't the sort of thing you want to be calling down on a motorised unit moving on your flanks UNLESS you call it down when the unit is in an enclosed space or stationary (not likely to happen in a breakthrough/flanking situation).

Also, the ONLY thing your reverse slope defence guarantees is that I will know where you are and can pin you as I move a platoon of tanks and infantry onto the crest of the hill where, from hull-down positions they can anihilate your forces with close-range fire.

Secondly, the likelihood of hardened wargamers charging over hillcrests on the offensive is roughly zero unless they are really, really, really certain they know where all your nearby forces are.

Apocal, your jeep ambush isn't going to work.. Whatever troops are in those vehicles are gonna dismount when you open fire and return fire at the jeep and AT gun. I think your gun would survive up to 20 seconds after opening fire which is not enough time to hitch up even a 57mm AT gun and run deeper into the woods.

ALSO in CM medium and heavy woods aren't vehicle traversible, only scattered woods are. CM does things RIGHT although I understand it is really difficult for you all to know that at the moment. My best advice for figuring out tactics for CM is simply to break open your infantry training manuals or remember the BASIC rules for infantry and tank combat and apply them consistently. CM is one of those games where proper application of tactics works and "fancy" gamey moves which worked in other games don't..

You all saw me try a few gamey things in CM in the AAR which used the alpha and you all saw how I got punished for most of them (and how Steve and Charles fixed it so the other gamey things I tried which worked won't work anymore )

Tgra...

Start from the top... Go with the basic rules of infantry combat, suppression,learn the difference between cover and concealment, read how arty was used to support infantry assaults using whirlwind bombardments, read accounts of historical combats wherever possible and if you can find any infantry manuals then check them out for tips.

It's all down to knowing the basics and applying them well and consistently. That doesn't guarantee you will always win but it does mean that you won't make silly mistakes and will be ready to win if your opponent does.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Apocal, young jedi, you said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a jeep and a AT gun<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep your focus. While you are taking popshots and repositioning, the main objective could be getting over run. Plus, who says I'll follow you deeper in the woods?

Ken, thanks for the tip on retreating into a city to limit the exposure to an attacking exterior force. I didn't think of that. Makes sense. I think that's what the chechens want the russions to do in grozny.

Did anyone here know that in Paris, the streets were arranged so that a retreating defending army could conduct a withdrawl easier? The streets are designed like a wheel so that the perimeter decreases as units slide down the spokes towards the hub.

SimonFox, don't close that black book yet... I'd like an all dressed pizza, and a root beer. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 10-25-99).]

[Guest PeterNZ]

read somewhere that the reverse slope defence was used by the Iraqi's in the Gulf War and they managed to imobilise two M1 Abrams with it before they were knocked out. By all accounts it was one of the best efforts by the iraqi's in the war and with better equipment the damage to the US might have been higher

As for Grozny, i read an article somewhere saying the inexperience of the KLA showed in making the kind of mistake fionn advises against, in deploying at the edge of town. Worse, the source i read said they should of been digging into foxholes instead of hidding in large blds easily brought down on the heads of the KLA by arty fire.

Still my favourite tactic is to set up intersecting fields of fire that can only be viewed from the big X that several of them make. This is a nice defensive move. Have a bunch of units, all in cover from the front, but who can easily face the fronts of other units down the line.. enfilade i guess.. makes things messy when it works.

I remember a cc1 map, the first map, about 1 victor in, as germans i had a mg in three blds hidden. each would open up to defend the other, then hide.. as the americans attacked.. he never got close enough to hurt his target, as the neighbouring MG tore him to shreds.

Food for thought.

PeterNZ