BDW Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Recently I've noticed that many of these threads go like this: CM player: "I am having X problem with the demo." BTS: "That is a problem in the beta demo - we've already fixed that." But there seems to be SO many things that have already been fixed, that most of the discussion here is redundant and unecessary. Wouldn't it be more helpful for everyone (including BTS) if we got an updated version of the demo? just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 LOL BDW you shameless so and so . When code goes final you'll get the latest build... Until then I guess you'll have to sit tight though. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 25, 1999 Author Share Posted November 25, 1999 hey at least I try...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 We'd *love* to update the demo, but the demo and full versions have different code bases because of all the stuff we ripped out of the demo. It would take Charles about 2 days to make a new demo and then another couple for debugging and testing. At this stage that wouldn't be a good idea, as it simply delays the full version When CM goes "Gold" we will release a brand new demo. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 25, 1999 Author Share Posted November 25, 1999 I'm not quite hip to the computer game development lingo. What does going "gold" mean? Does that mean you sell 100,000 copies - like with records? If so, why would I want to play the demo when I could just buy the full version? And Steve, if you aren't going to give us an updated demo for Christmas then what ARE you going to give us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Yeah, Steve. OK, you gave us a great demo. And then you surprised us with an extra scenario. The question is: what have you done for us lately???? Seriously, you've had my credit card number for about three months now. PLEASE CHARGE AGAINST IT AND SHIP ME THE GAME. I WANT IT NOW!!! ------------------ Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 BDW, Going "gold" means "gold master," which really just means that the game is done and a master CD has been burned, ready to be sent off somewhere for duplication. If CM sells 100,000 copies I'd be very surprised (and pleased). MOS, hmmm, you gave me an idea - I bet comanies could make some money CHARGING people to be beta-testers. [Ok, ok, I didn't say it was a _good_ idea.] Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> MOS, hmmm, you gave me an idea - I bet comanies could make some money CHARGING people to be beta-testers. [Ok, ok, I didn't say it was a _good_ idea.] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Where have you been??? Most game companies already do... Just go to your local CompUSA, Electronic Boutique, or Software Ect. You'll find all the latest and greatest beta test releases. Mikey [This message has been edited by Mikeydz (edited 11-24-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Of course most of those games are closed beta tests... as in the ears of the people who made it are closed to complaints Gold is reached when the game code is finalised and the "master" CD is made and sent off for duplication. As for 100,000 sales... I doubt it. Hardcore wargamers are a relatively small market although I've been surprised at how many Close Combat players have ended up liking CM and even more surprised at some people who say they never played a strategy game before in their life and now like CM. I think CM has wider appeal than I imagined but, of course, given that it is being distributed on the net a lot of its success depends on the people on this forum basically telling their friends about it, telling their pBEM buddies about it etc. Again, word of mouth is a big issue here and I firmly believe most people who download the CM demo will end up loving it. After all, there are a lot of people here who hadn't heard of CM until a friend told them about it or they saw it mentioned on some forum etc. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 When CM goes gold and the final demo is released can I copy the demo onto a CD and pass it around to get the word out? I feel better if BTS gives permision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunnerdream Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Hello fellow gamers! I've been following the development of this game for about a year now, although this is the first time I've posted anything. Somebody mentioned something about possible sales figures and seemed surprised at the interest generated so far. About 20 years ago, a group of friends and I began playing Sqaud Leader(if I'm not supposed to mention that name, please feel free to delete it). Our small group quickly grew to about 12 individuals who would get together on weekends for some serious prep-firing so to speak. I have alerted everyone of these individuals to this site and the incredible things you all are doing here. They have all downloaded the demo and to a man have declared it "The greatest thing since sliced bread". I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you may be pleasantly surprised by the number of intensely interested but silent(so far) wargamers out there!! PLEASE keep up the good work! I personally know about twelve gamers itching to get their grubby little mitts on this one, myself not least of all... Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Good post Gunnerdream. I too have followed this one for a while having been a bit of a board gamer originally. Saw the AVI movies ages ago and was pretty impressed. Then I forgot about it for a while and then I check back and lo! A playable demo...I haven't played anything else on my PC since downloading it last week. I can't wait to order a couple of jagdpathers around. I really did the "whoa! mad!" thing when I pressed GO on the first turn and saw tracer flying around from the back of that Tiger. And a full scenrio builder.....absolutely great. Very eagerly awaiting delivery of this little baby. Regs Fenris ps - Will there be a 'random' generator for scenerios like SP does (map & forces etc)? And linking each turns movie into 1 long movie spanning the entire engagement?? please tell me this isn't vapourwave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Hiya Gunnerdream. Its funny, the first time I saw the graphics for CM for some reason I thought the game wasnt going to be a detailed wargame, hehe, bigger fool me. Not because I didnt think it could be done, but because I had resigned myself to the fact that the wargame market was slowly dying and that someone wouldnt go out on a limb and try something totally new like the guys have with CM. After reading the FAQs and forum though, I realise how much detail CM truely had, even though I thought it too good to be true I too have been waiting for something like this since about 1985, even though back then I couldnt have even dreamed of what could be done now, hehe! Fenris, to your questions. I believe CM will have a DYO batlle maker where you can have the computer generate auto maps (damn good ones, too ), and then you can generate or purchase force, etc. I was a fan of this feature myself in the SP series when I ran out of scenerios to play, but with the ease of CM's scenerio editor I dont think this will be a problem. There has been talk about being able to link movies together to make a full length movie. Fingures crossed for this feature, as it would be damn cool to watch a full playback. And finally I can say for certain its definately not vapourware, hehe Its been mentioned on this board that the guys hope to have the coding done up by Christmas at which point they can then start to get CD's printed, etc, but of course nothing is ever certain. If things go as planned though is seems it may be about some time in January according to this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Hi all! The plan is to wrap up the final, send it off to the replicators, then make a new demo based on the "gold" (final) code. Basically when you look at it "what you see is what you will get" instead of the way it is right now. We figure about 2-4 weeks to actually start shipping product, depending no how the Holidays mess with production cycles. So everybody will have plenty of time to check out the demo before the game hits the street. The demo can be distributed by everybody, so long as there is no money exchanging hands (couple of bucks for a CDR is fine though). Steve P.S. 100,000 would make us *very* rich It isn't going to happen though. Need marketing muscle for numbers like that, which means shelf space, which means it ain't going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 25, 1999 Author Share Posted November 25, 1999 Steve - I don't remember reading or accepting a license agreement when I downloaded the Combat Mission demo. Certainly you will have one for the "gold" demo, right? Having said that, please excuse me while I get back to reverse engineering, decompiling, and disassembling your product... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucifer Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Steve, I agree with and even respect you for the reasons you don't want to go with a publisher, but why not make the game the way you want to, just the way you are. THEN when YOU are happy with the product go with a publisher? I mean this is an AWESOME game!! Why not have the best of both worlds? You can make the game to your own specifications without any presure from some big time publisher to get it out before it's finished, and then once you got it tweaked and READY for public use, sell it to a publisher for big money. ? ------------------ Brucifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 I was thinking the same thing Brucifer. Once you have a hot product, the designer can drive a hard bargain with distributors. Bad contracts usually are reserved for the new kid on the block without a track record to provide negotiating power. Although even the best of wargames may not carry a lot of attraction to retailers. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Speaking as a casual observer, I think finding a publisher is a lot harder than you think. Almost everybody likes Jagged Alliance II, and it took the developers almost a year to find one! Just cause you have a great game doesn't mean the suits in the marketing department are going to go ape over it--especially a game that appeals to a "niche" market. ------------------ Not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 25, 1999 Share Posted November 25, 1999 Ah, I see where you all are coming from and in the immortal words of one machiavellian conspirator, "You would think so wouldn't you." UNTIL you get to know the industry a bit better 1. Wargame selling to hardcore wargamers = money down the drain to most of these publishers. It might be an incorrect perception since IMO it's better to sell 100,000 copies and make a slight profit than sell 125,000 copies of some RTS and still end up making a loss ( and hell, some RTS games barely shift 20,000 copies upon release so they make huge losses) BUT in the industry hardcore flight sims are a dying breed and hardcore wargames are also a dying breed. If BTS took their game to a big publisher the FIRST thing that would have happened is that a producer would have wanted to make it more "accessible" to the average gamer (shades of Heavy tank, light tank in CC4 etc). Then, they might have found some "cool" units and asked for them to be added. Also, I'm sure some people find the SS offensive , better drop them just to be safe... etc etc etc. It would be death by a thousand cuts behind closed doors. Only BTS and testers would know what happened. Now, I'm not saying that a publisher goes out to destroy the game. Actually all they're doing is trying to make it more sellable to the kids who go into the shops at x-mas. The game would be shipped to coincide with a holiday and NOT when it's ready. If CM was with a publisher it would NEVER have missed being released for x-mas. That I can guarantee you. The term, "We're shipping whether you're ready or not." comes to mind Ken, don't mix up publisher with distributor. BTS would deal with a publisher whose distribution section would deal with distribution. I've seen some very good wargames go down the tubes due to poor distribution and I've heard horror stories of changes of direction being order from the publisher to other developers and than a new producer being appointed and then he orders ANOTHER change in direction etc etc.. It'd be a very different thing and there are many things which simply wouldn't be happening (this board being one of them). Be thankful that you don't really know how bad it is in the industry. It can be pretty bad. Just recently a flight sim was released with it's entire "realistic flight model" ripped out cause the publisher didn't want to release a hard-core flightsim but just wanted to release a fun flight sim. Why rip it out if it was working? Surely they could have just given an option for hard-core flight model or easy flight model? Yes they could but I'm quite sure the marketing department knows how reviewers will only use the hard-core flight model if it's there and will basically paint the game as hard-core. The company didn't want that so a model that worked in betas was ripped out in time for release . There are even worse horror stories than that though of entire teams being fired just a month or two before their game is due to be shipped and then entirely new teams being brought in to finish it off. I'm reviewing one game that happened to and I think that my review is going to be rather "interesting" reading . I actually know someone in the marketing department of that company who sent it to me for review and get on well with them and am kind of hoping they never see my review of their game since they'll probably never speak to me again ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers [This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 11-25-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 Yeah, what Fionn said There are few publishers left to go with for starters. Also, even after you find one, and start the negotiating process, it drags on and on and on and on... If you hit them in the off season they aren't likely to put it out right away either, and that means more delays. Ken said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bad contracts usually are reserved for the new kid on the block without a track record to provide negotiating power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, this shows me that a) Ken is a honest person, and he has never seen a contract from a games Publisher One of the reasons that a certain Publisher does NOT have CM now is because the contract was so bad that only a moron would sign it. It was that insulting, even though they came to us and BTS has an untarnished repuation in an industry full of hard luck stories. The really terrible bit about it was... they didn't understand how bad it was. In fact, we are sure they think that it was generous and fair. Right, and the bridge I have for sale is now only $1.99 billion, but only if you call in the next 10 minutes Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 Damn, I think I missed the super offer *pout* ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy_Eye Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 The best way to make a game to be kmown is to make an kind of gaming zone for the poducts. Its a big window to show the marchandise.It sure difficult to compete on the market with fast food games like command and conquer. And to take a year to make it known by others, its too late already you have to release another one. One thing is good to make a product popular, is to make it free for the first version. We call it hook the comsumer. Sure it cost a lot of money to make it. But best sellers are made like that. Maybe, if its good, you can have a big buying offer... Like say enough to buy a car .... The trend now is the role playing sims. Take this game and make each units be a player, make teams and fight. Can you imagines the numbers of players you ll get. You make kind of ranking system to make officers and sarges. Then they give orders. Division forming and medals.... Can beat out Quake and all that kind. no need of AI. no more paint ball fight to clean clothes.... thats real war. a soldier with himself with ennemies in front and officer in the back. All that under fire. You sure make a fortune..... enough to buy a RV when hooked, the comsumer will keep comming back. Close Combat CC4 will still sell a lot based on previous MS publishing hooked customuers. How many software made their trade mark by beeing free the first years. Sure you need to sell your car the first release. But to buy a collection of....let say vantage ferrari Nice product. But i think still in developement to make it a best seller. But you have the basis to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 CC NEVER was sold free. Also, some of what you outlined is exactly what publishers would ask to be done to the game. You're welcome to your opinion of course but I'm thankful the game won't change to your vision. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy_Eye Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 1- ID software did it Fionn. They were small time designer. Now they sell to live with the sells. 2- And by the way i didnt say that CC was ever free, MS dont need to do it. They publish top sellers. But BTS is not Microsoft!!! They choose the ear to ear words to make themself known. They have the choice of taking years to become top sellers, or to makes thing happening. 3- Publishers wants to make a game for the players, not for only the hard core ww2. If you want to make thesis on ww2 actions repports its your choice. But we need a game who make us live ww2 actions. So to be the most realistic, an officer cant fly to a point to see the situation, he simply watch at his map and try to have units info by radio or signal. Fog of war was the most important of war. An officer with the most info on his onw units and the ennemy will likely win the battle, of could make better dicisions. 4- My vision is not better then yours, nor yours better then mine. But i am not the one who wants to sell it. Good for you if you think you find the right vision. But dont despise others. All views are relative of the viewers. If you think you almighty right, so you are, from your seat.... But ideas make things. Judgement breaks it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted November 26, 1999 Share Posted November 26, 1999 -Publishers wants to make a game for the players, not for only the hard core ww2 I'm not so sure about that.. have you seen BTS's history ? Well I don't know but you kinda makes me feel like a freak LOL. "Hey it's one of those pesky WW2 freaks again, ignore him and he might not recognize you". Damn it I didn't read it proper it seems.. you said PUBLISHERS!!! in bright red words. Forget my post [This message has been edited by howardb (edited 11-26-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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