Ambush!

[Moon]

As far as I recall, the only way available so far to set up an ambush is to order your units to hide. This makes sure they go prone and try to remain unnoticed until a good shot becomes available. I could imagine that a bit more player control would be nice here to avoid the computer selecting the wrong target (or the right target at a wrong time).

Imagine a Sherman column driving into a little town and the Panzerfaust shooting at the lead tank just before it enters the town (allowing the rest of the column to easily encircle the town)...

How about this solution: add an option for the player to set firing ranges for your units. You could e.g. order the Panzerfaust team to fire only when a target becomes available within, say, 50 meters, thereby luring the column further inside the town...

[Sten]

This is a VERY good idea. It's really annoying that in CC3 there is no 'hide' command, only the 'ambush' command. Allowing the player to control WHEN a hidden unit should open fire is paramount to any ambush. I'm behind Moons suggestion all the way.

Sten

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>:You could e.g. order the Panzerfaust team to fire only when a target becomes available within, say, 50 meters,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would'n you want an unless command then? Say my dumb tank comes rolling along and at 60 meters spots you. He shoots at you. Would you want your hiding squad to still hide?

Now it would be nice to be able to order your tank/squad to fire a short burst at targets A,B, C. So the orders that a tank could have is move to point A, fire a burst at point B, move to point C, fire a burst at point D. Yes I know wasting ammo is not a good idea. You would want to take a burst at a suspicious house that you think someone might be hiding. Maybe you'll get a response outta him.

You see, as the player recieving the fire, you shouldn't know if the incoming fire is from a guy that has spotted you or whether it is a precautionary burst. As long as your squad thinks that death is imminent, that's what counts.

So if your squad is hiding, what will they do when 50 cal fire rips into the house from 60 meters? Will they still hide? If we include a hide order, shouldn't we also have a short burst order?

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 04-27-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Why Moon, have you been playing the game in your head again? What an active imagination you have there

We think we have got ourselves a kick ass set of Ambush options here. There are basically three ways to ambush an enemy unit:

1. Hide, enemy target selected - unit will stay hidden until a really good shot is available against some variable unit.

2. Hide, target an ambush marker - this is really cool. The player can order a particular point to become a "trigger" for the ambush to be sprung. When the first enemy unit moves near the marker, all units that are hidden and have the marker as a target will open up on the best possible enemy unit available to them.

3. Hide, no enemy target selected - unit will stay hidden until a nearby friendly unit, which uses either of the above methods, starts shooting. Current range is set to 100m. The unit will select its own "best" possible target.

Option #2 is the one we are working on now, so the mechanics aren't set in stone. But basically a HQ unit can be ordered to create an Ambush Marker anywhere in its LOS, so long as the HQ is not spotted. Once the marker is placed on the map, any unit with or without LOS can select the marker as its target. When an enemy unit moves near the marker, all units that had the marker as their target will open fire on whatever the best possible target is at the time.

More cool benefits are that the Ambush Marker behaves the same way CM's Boresight Markers do. This means that artillery, IGs, and ATs can also be assigned to the Ambush Marker. When the trigger is flipped they will start shooting as well. Artillery will also get an accuracy bonus and reduced delay penalty.

The downside of an Ambush Point is that you basically have to assign units to hold their fire and not take any opportunity shots that may come up. This is realistic.

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So, how would the above work in Moon's example? Like this:

The German player takes an HQ and creates an Ambush Marker on the road. He then positions (or had positioned) two squads on either side of the road, some 20-40m further towards the US positions than the marker. Both squads Hide and target the Ambush Marker. The third squad is off in the woods guarding the flank 80m away and is ordered to hide without a target specified. Other assets are then assigned to the marker, like a Panzerschreck team and the HQ itself (some German HQs had LMGs!!). Now, the trap is ready.

The US column comes rumbling down the street. Assuming the US force goes against ALL sanity and doesn't deploy troops on either side of the road, they are in for a big problem. The column passes the two hiding squads on its way up the street. The lead vehicle, a Sherman, is near the Ambush Marker and the rear most vehicle is getting close to the hidden squads. Seconds later the lead Sherman triggers the Ambush by driving over the Ambush Marker. Now all Hell breaks loose!!

The Panzerschreck opens up and (let us assume) knocks out the lead Sherman. Both squads on either side of the road also open up with Panzerfausts and small arms fire. Two M3 half tracks which were following the Shermans blow up. The third squad is "woke up" by the nearby shooting and tries to shoot at anything that moves. The infantry spilling out are also cut down, routed, pinned, or otherwise incapacitated. There are a few vehicles stuck in between the Sherman and the HTs, and they will soon be dead meat one way or the other.

In this fictional case the US force would probably be totally wiped out. The ambush was well set up and coordinated, and the US force didn't take due care in moving into the town. Had they stopped before entering the town, and deployed infantry on either side ahead of the vehicles, the battle would have been completely different. In the end the US would still likely have a bloody nose, but not the total slaughter described above.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-27-99).]

[BDW]

Steve, when you guys get the ambush marker system up and running, I think you should run the scenario you just descibed and tell us how it turns out "for real".

Question: if your units are hiding, waiting to ambush, is there any chance at all of one of them blowing the ambush - like making a noise, or opening fire to early (itchy trigger finger or misunderstanding), or any other human error type of thing? Wil you simulate that? I think you should. It seems to me that in real life even the most well planned ambush could be blown by some unforeseen circumstance. It might be a small chance, and relatively uncommon, but wouldn't it be easy to include? I think the benefit in the game setting is that it would make things more exciting....

Just knowing that your ambush is not absolutely 100% guaranteed to be executed precisely as planned would add a LOT of excitement during those very tense seconds when you are waiting for the enemy to spring the trap!

[Guest Big Time Software]

I will try and do up a battle just like Martin described to see what happens (once the coding is done).

Yes, units MAY screw up and do things you don't want them to do while in ambush. However, it largely depends on the type of ambush orders you give. Units not using the Ambush Marker will be more likely to do unpredicatable things. Also, there is the enemy's actions to considder.

Think about the example above, then think about what would have happened if the US did the "right thing". The whole street battle could have sparked up before the Sherman reached the Ambush Point if one of the US infantry squads moved too close to one of the hiding German squads (I forgot to mention that ALL hiding units will open fire if there is a target at VERY close range). This would, in effect, have triggered the Ambush too early.

So the upshot is that no ambush is a sure bet. The more cautious the enemy, the more likely things will not go as planned. This is going to be one of those features that seperates the good players from the bad, the exceptional from the average.

Steve

[Adam Arabian]

I may have been supposed to get this out of the earlier message, but in the above scenario, what if a Panzerschreck was NOT focused on the target square? Will the infantry units still open up on the Sherman since that is their 'Orders', even though it might not be a terribly good idea? On the flip side, what if the same units are assigned to teh ambush point (i.e. the AT weaponry) and no tank hoves into view? Will the AT shot still be taken although its really just a waste of ammo? I know this should be resolved by better recon by the ambushing side, but accidents do happen (to me especially) and I'm wondering how the units will react to the orders?

[BDW]

Hmmmmmm...Steve your response partially answers my question. I was thinking more about mistakes made by units in hiding/ambush mode that are INDEPENDENT of the enemy's actions.

Using the above example, it would mean the Panzerschreck team having and itchy trigger finger and firing too early (before the lead tank hit the ambush marker). Or the unit hiding along the road making a "loud noise" (or something) thereby revealing itself to the US units. Either mistake would put the US on notice of an impending ambush, without the US doing anything differently. They would be mistakes by the German units in executing the planned ambush.

I think it would be exciting for both sides. Say, for example, the German unit in hiding accidentally revealed itself to the US somehow (simulated noise or poor ambush preparation, etc). The German player would be saying, "Drats! They messed up the plan - those idiots!" Meanwhile, the US player would be saying, "OH NO! It's a freeking ambush!" Both players would be biting their nails as the unexpected results unfolded in front of them.

It would be interesting if the German unit was revealed right at the end of the action phase. That would give the US player a planning phase with which to make adjustments and deal with the ambush. Hmmmm. How would that work out?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Adam, units that are targeting an Ambush marker will fire when an enemy unit reaches it. Each unit has NO concept of what other units are doing, only what they are told to do. So what the PS is or is not doing doesn't matter one bit to the squads. If you want to have one squad ambush a whole column, without heavy support weapons, that is your choice. Perhaps a poor one, but who are we to judge?

However, if the ambushing unit can't possibly cause any harm (like a rifle squad vs. a tank at 500m) it won't open fire. Only legit targets will be fired at. If an AT gun only has soft targets, it will fire an HE round. With very few exceptions, AT guns have HE as well.

BDW, pat yourself on the back. We thought about adding the extra level of detail so that units might get trigger happy, but it got lost in the shuffle of design decisions. Your email reminded us that it was indeed a worthy element to simulate. I have been informed that it was just coded up So now units that are poorer will have a chance of opening up too soon. We'll probably have to play around with the values a bit, but the core behavior is now in the game.

Hopefully Charles will tie up some other lose ends and get me a new version soon. I'm dying to check this out.

Oh, and there is always a chance of spotting a unit that is hiding, ambush or not. The chance depends on a whole buch of things, but in general is really small if the unit has never moved. But you never know

Steve

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 04-27-99).]

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Ah, and what happens if my tank decides to take an mg shot in a house that I think the enemy is hiding in ambush. Will that unit be likely to break out of it's hiding place? Can you assign the degree of fire by an mg? Like short burst/all out.

Nice to see infantry portrayed as playing an important role in combat. The game does not center around the almighty tank.

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 04-27-99).]

[BDW]

Cool! That is good news. The more I learn about this game the better it sounds!

Early summer or late summer?

[Eric Alkema]

Based on your description and the screen shots I have seen it appears that the player is able to order units to ambush a point. That works fine if I am ambushing units marching down a road (and they cooperate by not moving off the road) but what happens if I cannot predict the target’s path so easily? In my mind the ideal shape of an ambush zone would be a line, not a point. This would allow me to indicate to my Panzerschreck that I want them to attack when the enemy advances this far but if they are farther away than X meters, don’t blow your cover on a chancy shot.

BTW, based on everything I have seen and read about this game has me waiting impatiently for its release.

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Eric

[Dave]

Would the quality of the troops being used in the ambush increase or decrease the chances of the ambush being blown? What would happen with a mix in the quality of the ambushing troops?

[Fionn]

Guys,

While the screenshots show an ambush point being chosen the enemy need not trip over that exact point to trip the ambush. Troops will make decisions themselves on when to spring the ambush.

Poor troops may spring it early and blow your entire ambush whilst veteran troops will wait until the enemy is right in the killzone.

I've had enemy infantry approach my hidden ambush units in the game from the OPPOSITE direction of my ambush marker. Once the enemy infantry was too close to ignore my units (of their own accord) blazed away and blew almost the entire US infantry squad away.

Needless to say I moved the ambush a bit farther down the trail.. I got a Panther a few minutes later as it rumbled into my new ambush location ( you can reset ambushes as the game progresses).

I wouldn't recommend mixing troop qualities in an ambush myself. I HATE when Green troops blaze away and blow the ambush. usually it leads to a big artillery barrage and some murderous direct fire.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest titan]

BDW

Quote:Question: if your units are hiding, waiting to ambush, is there any chance at all of one of them blowing the ambush - like making a noise, or opening fire to early (itchy trigger finger or misunderstanding), or any other human error type of thing? Wil you simulate that? I think you should.

I like your thoughts BDW,But just one thing i would like to add to that is that perhaps depending on the quality of the troops EG:whether they are green or elite should have a bearing on there chances blowing the ambush,obviously more experinced troops would have a lesser chance of giving the game away.

Titan

[Fionn]

Titan,

What you are referring to is already in as far as I know.. Green troops do pretty much everything poorly (except die.. they're really good at that).

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Kevin Peltz]

What about friendly fire casualties- putting two groups of men on either side of a road in ambush may not be the best thing to do, for example? Is it modeled- there was some discussion about this earlier, but I couldn't find what was finally decided.

[Fionn]

Funny you should mention friendly fire today .

I KNOW that units can fire on friends at night.. In the game I discussed elsewhere which martin sent me today I lost about half a squad to friendly fire when two friendly MGs and another squad decided that "those guys in the house over there MUST be German" and fired at them..

This happened at night.. I haven;t seen it any other time but friendly fire code is there and working at night LOL..It's a cool addition too since it really does force you to move forward in bunches ensuring no-one gets in between the enemy and your support units.

A lot of fun to plot those movement paths.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

Kevin, there is no tracking of small arms fire, which is what needs to happen for cross fire friendly casualties. When everybody has upgraded to Merceds and G4s, then we can think about it, but until then our poor CPUs can't handle the CPU demands necessary to track ever unit's fire along its entire LOF.

Night time friendly fire is a different story. Units have a random chance, depending on proximity and quality, of opening up on a nearby friendly unit. The chance is generally pretty low, but it can happen. The difference between this and the above is that this is a freak occurance instead of something that can happen through normal play.

Steve

P.S. Man, this thread is REALLY old. The message that started this was from Moon after he got to watch me play a game. He was the first to see CM in action and Ambushing at that point wasn't good enough. Of course he couldn't say WHY he was aksing at the time

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hehehe, I was wondering why Martin was asking that Question Steve! I didnt notice the date.

[Mike D]

Steve, et. al,

I'm glad to see that this topic got revisited as I think it is highly important to the game. Steve, I think you answered my question when you stated:

"BDW, pat yourself on the back. We thought about adding the extra level of detail so that units might get trigger happy, but it got lost in the shuffle of design decisions. Your email reminded us that it was indeed a worthy element to simulate. I have been informed that it was just coded up So now units that are poorer will have a chance of opening up too soon. We'll probably have to play around with the values a bit, but the core behavior is now in the game"

I assume this means ambushing units with more experience (i.e. veteran, elite, etc.) will be much less likely to screw up and open fire too early vs. green units????

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Moon]

This is quick to answer: yes