Real Struggle: line of sight and line of fire

[Paulverisor64]

I'm playing in a PBEM game where my opponent has decimated my armor due to line of sight and line of fire issues.

We're playing on a map with a lot of open space. The defending side has the higher elevation. There are slight height contour variations. Just in front of the village there is a raised contour that overlooks most of the map and slight dips that reach for quite a distance. There is a raised portion of the hill leading towards the top of the defending side.

In doing targetting checks I see that the view is obstructed in many places in targetting towards the top of the hill.

Too many times in this game I've seen this sense of security evaporate when my opponent's Tiger comes out to rest on the perch of the hill. I find myself with nowhere to retreat as all the surrounding hill is of the same contour. I've repeated this mistake on many areas of the map.

My enemy always emerges as I am positioned in harms way. I've essentially lost the game already, but I'm really hoping to find a way to do better in the future.

From what I understand the targetting tool only picks up the visibility from the ground of the area square that is the beginning and the ground of the area square at the end. Even a slight contour can break the line of sight. An object 5 feet off the ground at the beginning or end might actually be seen in reality. This has been a plague to me.

Is there any way to get an accurate idea of the true visibility that might be seen from vehicle to vehicle height? Besides using the targetting tool I have hit the Tab key to focus in on mine or the enemy's vehicle but haven't been able to derive an accurate visibility from this.

If there isn't a good way of finding this out; the type of tool that would be very helpful would be a contouring type tool that would map out what could be seen from a specific area square, at a small elevation above the ground. I believe someone else on the forum suggested something similar to this at one point.

[TheVulture]

One trick you can use is to plot a tank waypoint at the potential enemy position and then check line of sight from that waypoint to where your vehicles currently are - that LoS check at least will use the height of the vehicles in it.

[Vanir Ausf B]

From what I understand the targetting tool only picks up the visibility from the ground of the area square that is the beginning and the ground of the area square at the end.

I believe LOS is actually traced from the height of the targeting unit to the ground, not from ground level to ground level.

Is there any way to get an accurate idea of the true visibility that might be seen from vehicle to vehicle height? Besides using the targetting tool I have hit the Tab key to focus in on mine or the enemy's vehicle but haven't been able to derive an accurate visibility from this.

TheVulture's suggestion is a good one.

One other thing: when using the targeting tool pay attention to areas that are "reverse slope - no aimpoint". These are areas to where your unit has LOS to the ground but no LOF to the ground. I think. I'm not 100% sure on that description, but in any case these are places where you will usually have LOF to any enemy vehicle that moves into them, and that enemy vehicle will usually have LOF back to your unit.

[Paulverisor64]

I believe LOS is actually traced from the height of the targeting unit to the ground, not from ground level to ground level.

Would this still be true if the targetting originates from the clear ground waypoint and not the attacker's starting point?

TheVulture's suggestion is a good one.

Once again this is a little puzzling. If this presumption was correct wouldn't it mean that every single spot that was waypointed and then targetted was taken from the vehicle height? I'd really like to believe this is true but when you are waypointing from the vehicle it only sees a clear area because of the fog of war. So I don't understand how this waypoint would pick up the vehicle height from that clear area square?

One other thing: when using the targeting tool pay attention to areas that are "reverse slope - no aimpoint". These are areas to where your unit has LOS to the ground but no LOF to the ground. I think. I'm not 100% sure on that description, but in any case these are places where you will usually have LOF to any enemy vehicle that moves into them, and that enemy vehicle will usually have LOF back to your unit.

That is a very good point. I never understood the "reverse slope - no aimpoint" before. This is certainly something I will look for from now on.

Thanks for both your's and Vulture's help.

I'm still hoping someone might clear up how the targetting tool from the waypoint of the suspected target works.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Would this still be true if the targetting originates from the clear ground waypoint and not the attacker's starting point?

Yes.

Once again this is a little puzzling. If this presumption was correct wouldn't it mean that every single spot that was waypointed and then targetted was taken from the vehicle height? I'd really like to believe this is true but when you are waypointing from the vehicle it only sees a clear area because of the fog of war. So I don't understand how this waypoint would pick up the vehicle height from that clear area square?

There is no terrain fog of war, just enemy unit fog of war.

I'm still hoping someone might clear up how the targetting tool from the waypoint of the suspected target works.

You mean a waypoint at the position of an enemy unit, or possible future position? It's like checking LOF from any other waypoint. The LOS/LOF is measured from the selected unit's present height. Maybe pictures will help.

[Paulverisor64]

Excellent choice of pictures. This does prove this out very well. I do believe that the main thing that has made me stumble is the "reverse slope - no aimpoint".

I do have 1 last question in regards to this example. What if you should instead of targetting the tank, target the ground off to the side of the tank. Would you still get the blue targetting line?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I do have 1 last question in regards to this example. What if you should instead of targetting the tank, target the ground off to the side of the tank. Would you still get the blue targetting line?

From the Panther? Yes because he's right up next to the fense.

But from the Stuart's position you would not see the ground, just the tank. This is true both when targeting from the Stuart's waypoint...

... and when using Vulture's method of placing a waypoint for the Panther at the enemy's location and targeting back at the Panther's own position.

This was an interesting little test to do because I just learned that my earlier uncertainly about the meaning of "reverse slope - no aimpoint" was justified. What it actually seems to mean is that you have LOS/LOF to the area directly above the ground you are targeting but not on the ground itself. In other words, that if an enemy unit moves there, there is a chance -- depending on how tall it is -- that you will have LOS/LOF on it and vice versa, whereas if it says "No line of sight" there is no chance of seeing anything there from the position you are looking from.

[Paulverisor64]

From the Panther? Yes because he's right up next to the fense.

But from the Stuart's position you would not see the ground, just the tank. This is true both when targeting from the Stuart's waypoint...

That is great! So given this test it appears that if it is conceivable by the height of the spotting vehicle to see another vehicle behind something you will get the "reverse slope - no aimpoint" message. Thank you so much for taking the time to clear up the line of sight/line of fire issue, this will certainly help me to be more conscious of the threat possibilities.