Operation Mercury

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I was reading about the battle for Crete. I know some people want to simulate it. From what I'm reading, the German airborne paid a high cost for that island.

In hindsight, I guess it would serve as an example of how not to conduct an airborne drop.

The British on the island withheld using thier AA guns to lure the German command into a false sense of security. It worked. Even when recon revealed AAguns, German command went ahead with the operation. I believe General Student promised Hitler he would take the Island in three days and he was already late when the recon info came in. So what did he do? He went ahead with the operation.

Gliders landed on rocky surfaces. Paratroopers got dropped off at the wrong zones since transports tried to evade AA fire. Even the lucky paratroopers that landed safely had to scramble to get thier equipment canisters under fire! If you want to lable anything criminal, it was sending those elite soldiers to die in those conditions. What a waste.

[Fionn]

Yes, but look at the history of WW2.

Very few airborne operations actually came off well. They were still learning how to use airborne units and the fact that the Germans went with an all-parachute drop instead of the allied standard of 2 glider-borne troops for each para-borne troop didn't help either...

All in all Market Garden, Italy, Normandy, Crete etc were all marred by absolutely horrendous disasters and unecessary loss. The corollary is that about the only reason ANY of those attacks succeeded was because of the sheer quality of the men involved.

[Guest Lokesa]

What was the name of that river fort the germans took by landing gliders (?) on the roof of at the outset of their invasion into holland (?)

Sorry for being so vague, it's been a while. I bet someone will know the answer right off though.

[Thomm]

Sorry for being TOTALLY off-topic, but what is your opinion about fighting steel, now that the demo is out ?

The first thing I have noticed is that it is virtually impossible to take out ships at point blank range. Your gunners even seem to have difficulties hitting from 500 meters distance considering the water columns ! Mr. Fionn, wouldn't you say that this ruins immersion ?

By the way, sorry for interfering with this thread, but I did not want to start a new one about FS on a CM forum !

[Fuzziez]

Hi Lokesa,

the name of the fort was Eben Emael and its location was not in Holland but in Belgium.

Try SPI's Paratroop Eben Emael scenario from 1977, it's solitaire and quite playable.

[Fionn]

Hmm Thomm, with NDAs etc asking me that question puts me in hot water really.

I'll give you the best answer I can though..

1. The gunnery model issue is not something which I was exposed to prior to release.

2. It IS something which will be fixed soon to the best of my knowledge very quickly.

3. I had NOTHING to do with the gunnery model ... I didn't even see it before it shipped.

OTOH looking at all the modifiers in there it is very comprehensive once the range-based modifiers are corrected...

I have absolutely no doubt that these modifiers will be corrected very soon and don't think that you should hold off buying the game if the only thing holding you back is the to hit %es.

Oh and FWIW what I did with FS was go through the ship database and ensure that was all correct.

As the man said, that's all folks ,

It was Eben Emael and 77 glider engineers landed on it and used shaped charges to burst thei9r way in and destroy the embrasures.

P.s. First name is Fionn. Last name Kelly so no more Mr. Fionn ok? Just call me Fionn this is a pretty informal place and I like it that way.

[Los]

I'm sort of a big fan of crete. One of the major things against them was the comlete lack of suprise doue to Ultra and otehr sources. What's amazing is that they took the Island after all. While in the Aftermath the Germans were drawing conclusions that woudl curtail major airborne operations, the Allies were looking at Creter and saying, "holy ****, they've got something there with their airborne forces , we need to expand that capability!

BTW there is a great two volume set from Schiffer Militaria called History of the 3rd Fallschirmjaeger regt. It has hundreds or maybe a thousand pictures including tons of never seen before shots from Crete.

Los

[Thomm]

Dear Fionn !

Thanks for your response ! The "Mister" is just so common in a German speaking country, especially when adressing a "celebrity" like you are (no, I am not ironic). It is more a sign of respect, but I have to accept finally that this is perceived differently in English speaking countries (or just the States ?!). Actually I tried a compromise with Mr. Fionn, the Mr. underlining the respect.

As for the game, after a few minutes I have switched to the 2D map ! In the end the sea is just a plane (well, a sphere) and it was somehow disappointing how irrelevant the 3D environment is in this game ! I am curious how CM will feel in this respect (to make the connection finally).

And said water-columns (=misses at point-blank range) reminded me sooo much of one of your editorials, Fionn, because the moment I saw them I just thought to myself: "Okay, lets forget it !". Not good for the game.

By the way, the Panzer Elite Public Beta Phase was announced today ...

Regards,

Thomm

[Simon Fox]

Is this the fighting steel thread or the crete thread? From what I read the Crete operation was touch and go. If the allied forces had been able to hang on to the critical airfields just a little longer it might have tipped the balance. As it was the airlifted german reinforcements were landing straight into a firefight at malemo. Also best not to characterise the forces on the island as British they were mostly NZ and Aust. troops evacuated from Greece under the leadership of Freyberg, the garrison of the island itself was pretty unprepared. The overall casualty figures for both sides were pretty even except most of the germans were dead and most of the allies were captured .

Cohesion and lack of support weapons (left behind in greece) were the major problems of the defenders, no air support was also a problem as the attackers made use of excellent close air support from the Luftwaffe to make up for their lack of heavy weaponry. Even so the battle had a profound effect upon both German and Allied use of airborne troops for the rest of the war and probably less well recognised it dissuaded Hitler from a possible island hopping campaign in the Med.

In fact my favourite WW2 'what if' has always been: what if Churchill listened to every bit of advice he had and did not send troops to Greece? Crete garrisoned with a properly supported division (prob NZ or Aust as they were the ones to spare) and accompanied by the air assets wasted in Greece (as far as I know at least one squadron was sent there) would have been a really tough nut to crack. O'connor would have had enough forces to drive on to Tripoli (the italians were shattered) and the North African campaign would have been over in '41. Crete was in strategic bomber range of the Ploesti oilfields which would have given Adolf a real headache (he he).

[Fionn]

Thanks for your response ! The "Mister" is just so common in a German speaking country, especially when adressing a "celebrity" like you are (no, I am not ironic).

Thomm, many thanks ... I'm half-belgian so many of the customs there are similar. It hadn't "clicked" that you were German or I would have understood the honorific much more. I thought you were American or Scandinavian or something and so were using it in ignorance that Fionn was my first name. Sorry, if it had clicked in my midn that you were German I wouldn't have said anything .

P.s. If I'm a celebrity where's my celebrity salary? I have a lavish lifestyle to support here hehe.

Donations to the Fionn Kelly Lifestyle Fund will be accepted from now on to help keep me in the lifestyle to which I have become accustomed .

It is more a sign of respect, but I have to accept finally that this is perceived differently in English speaking countries (or just the States ?!). Actually I tried a compromise with Mr. Fionn, the Mr. underlining the respect.

It is my fault Thomm. As with everything the context is all. I was interpreting the Mister as being written by an American from whom, of course, it would have a different meaning and stand for something different. So, mea culpa .

But I do still stand by the fact that I like things informal plus I'm no GrossExpert or anything . Just another regular person.. Also, once I start accepting such compliments (which I thank you for BTW) then others will start attacking me and drawing baseless insinuations.. (That might sound paranoid but trust me, once you put your head above the parapet the weirdos DO start crawling out of the woodwork attacking everything you do and say.

As for the game, after a few minutes I have switched to the 2D map ! In the end the sea is just a plane (well, a sphere) and it was somehow disappointing how irrelevant the 3D environment is in this game !

Thomm, me too. As far as I'm concerned in most games 3D is a gimmick. They put it in to attract the "impulse buyer" and non-grognards but it usually has little relevance. I only switch to the 3D view to check out damage done to enemy ships (a manual count of turrets destroyed so I can figure out what firing arcs are still present) and torpedo wakes since I like the sense of suspense as the wakes near the enemy ship .. Apart from that it's 2D top-down gaming for me .

I am curious how CM will feel in this respect (to make the connection finally).

I think CM will be markedly different since, by its nature naval warfare occurs on a flat plane (ok the earth's surface is curved by curvature effects don't make much difference once LOS is established at under 20 nautical miles IMO ). CM's land terrain is bumpy, with trees, LOS obstructions etc etc etc and thus it is BOUND to benefit from a more accurate representation of the 3D nature of land.. I think the 3D nature of CM will be very important when plotting movement and firing points. Certainly it will look better than a 3D representation of an almost empty ocean .

And said water-columns (=misses at point-blank range) reminded me sooo much of one of your editorials, Fionn, because the moment I saw them I just thought to myself: "Okay, lets forget it !". Not good for the game.

Hehe .. *Chuckle*.. Yep after reading them and looking at the newer strategy games you do see some "coincidences" don't you ?

By the way, the Panzer Elite Public Beta Phase was announced today ...

Yep I know .. We were polled as to whether we thought it was a good idea or not a while back and I think all but one said to go with it.. (Nice testing group.)

[Kevin Peltz]

Another book that describes operations on Crete (as well as many other areas, such as Norway, the Uman, and Finland) is "Alpine Elite", by James Lucas. It covers all the actions involving the Gebirgsjaeger through the course of the war. It is a good read.

[Simon Fox]

Go Kevin, Don't let Thomm and Fionn hijack this thread and mutate it into the Fighting Steel thread. I guess we will have to wait a while to fight those crete battles in CM as my understanding is that the Balkans, Greece, Africa etc are third in line. Pity, as being an Aussie its nice to play your own nationality ever now and again in a game (especially when their good ). By the way how do you do those HTML smileys?

[Fionn]

LOL Simon ..

Umm but we really weren't OT as CM models naval gunfire HENCE the modelling of gunnery in FS is applicable to CM's naval gunnery results ..

hehe. Yep that's pure BS .

[Lee]

Hey Fionn, you should try to get in charge of making sure the database in Panzer General 3

is accurate. I have heard a lot of very bad things about the historical accuracy of the

databases in both PG2 and PG3. If they let you handle the database (equipment intro.

dates, attack/defend values, etc.) I'm sure it will be a whole lot better than it is now.

I realize that PG isn't supposed to be the most detailed wargame in the world but there

is no reason for the kinds of gross errors in historical accuracy that SSI put in there.

And then they refused to fix the mistakes after the game was released. We need someone

in charge of that database who actually knows what he's doing. I vote for Fionn, he's a

real wargamer and he takes the time to check his facts.

[Fionn]

LOL. Making PG3 into Grognard General 3 eh .. Well if they ask me I'll look at it but PG3 isn't really aimed at grognards. What it does it does well though so I won't be waiting by the phone hehe .

Seriously though I'm just waiting for CM and all the follow-ons I'm sure will come. I really have a lot of faith that this game will deliver.

[Lee]

Like I said, I know PG isn't the most detailed wargame ever devised,

but I don't see any reason gamers have to tolerate huge errors. I'm

talking equipment intro dates off about

a year(!), attack and defense

values that are backwards. Even in a "light" wargame like PG, these kinds

of sloppy errors aren't acceptable. I really hope you get those guys to let

you have a look at the database. In a few hours you could make a huge

improvement to it. Please spare us the horrors of these *glaring*

inaccuracies, Fionn.

Also, it seems that in every successive release of PG they put in far

fewer variety of units, and that is not a good thing. One of the funnest

things in a wargame is the cool variation in model types, troop types, etc.

Apparently PG 2 had far fewer unit types than PG and PG 3 may have even fewer.

I'd hate to see such a fun game series ruined by being stripped of everything

but flashy graphics.

If only we could get the BTS team to do PG 3, THEN we'd be in buisness. Can

you imagine an operational-level wargame like PG 3 being done by BTS? *DROOL*

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I am in the process of reading 'Ten Days to Destiny, the battle for Crete 1941' by G.C. Kiriakopoulos.

I see that the battle was fought in two phases. I'm in the middle now and now know that phase one was a military disaster. We'll see how phase two goes. I won't be surprised to see Gen Student court martialed.That's how bad phase one was. Bad bad idea to drop airborne troops on enemy strongholds on an island. A very inefficient plan of attack. We'll see how this ends.

[Rhet]

John (and any one else who is interested), check this link out http://www4.army.mil/cmh-pg/104-13.HTM

It is a really good analysis of airborne operations during the war.

------------------

Rhet

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi guys. Just wondering if anyone has any good info or web sites on the battle that happened are Caen, early after the landings?

Ive been looking, but havnt found too much, especially in the way of maps

[Los]

BTW, I migt have mentioned that I did a lot of research on Crete for a Gamer's boardgame (Hunters from the Sky). A real good buddy who works at the National archives provided me with boxes of research materials on Crete which I still have. I alos went to germany and attended the Airborne school there (part of an exchange porgram), and piucked up more valuable research. This includes lots for reprints of German, and Allied AARs. TOEs maps, etc etc both in english and in german. I have read anything that comes down the pike about Crete and can tell you that there are very few balanced accounts of the operation. Most are written from allied sources and contain much more about their operations and not so much details about the German side except how many they shot or basic outlines of their plans.

WHile there were many problems with the German side of the operations, the fact of the matter is that these guys that survived hung on and took the island with little reinforcment. (I'm including the excellent 100 GB regt which air landed in under fire), thus upholding the finest traditions (well not so much upholding but establishing) of airborne forces. This in the face of high quality (ANZAC) opposition, though the allies suffered many command and control problems of their own.

The operations in Normandy were slightly less disastorous, but again we see whole battalions suffering heavy casualties, being dumped in the ocean, scattered to hell or whatever, yet the few survivors that rally together go forward and get the job done.

IMO Crete as well as the entire Balkans campaign was nothing short of a complete disaster for the Allies and the Royal Navy in particular. Despite heavy casaulties, this vital island was secured for German use throughout the war and the allies sent packing to Africa.

But what an excellent battle it is to study! You have the ANZAC forces, arguably the toughest of the british empire troops, albeit handicapped by confusion, lack of equipment, and the standard incompetence showed by their sides' higher authority at that point in the war, as well as a collection of greek forces, unceremoniously dumped on Crete with little support and resources, saved for their own wits. The seas are surrounded by a Royal Navy who still has not quite learned the lesson that ships unsupported by air power in littoral regions are at high risk.

Against them are the Fallschirmjaeger, with many experienced vets of their own from their campaigns in Europe, but rapidly expanded with many highly fit, trained, and motivated (but GREEN) volunteers, now asked to conduct an operation never before done. Handicapped by a major breach of intelligence. Supported by a GB divison which will go on to fight excellently in battle. And a seaborne reinforcement force destined for disaster, basically run over in variuous scows and tramp steamers, protected by one little Italian torpedo boat (Which goes on to render excellent and brave service in the futile defense of this rag tag fleet). Finally we see the Luftwaffe, arguably approaching peak efficiency, handing the Royal Navy a series of fatal blows in its attempt to defend Crete and pull off the survivors.

The actual operations on Crete are small unit action heaven for anyone looking for good gaming scenarios, outnumbered and isolated FJ, with little or no time to recover from the shock of a calamitous landing, gathering themselves to go forward against the tough ANZACs and Greeks (themsleves hunting down isolated bands of paras with a vengence). The Defenders have their own problems, as the Luftwaffe interdicts their operations, sinks much of the Navy that will evacuate them and adds to the confusuion its commanders labor under, thus casuing for many missed opportunities. WHile neither sides upper commanders are seen at their best in this operation, it is the platoon leaders and NCOs/men on each side that step up to the plate and get the job done.

If only some rich guy like Schwarzenegger would fund a movie on this battle

Los

P.S> Every year the german parachute school, at Altenstadt sends a contingent of about 50 paras to Crete to perform maintenace on the german cemeteries and monuments as well as do a terrain walk. They find new stuff every year, and when I was there brought back a helmet and a schmeisser back to the museum. (as well as soome newly uncovered remains)

P.P.S BTW another interesting battle was the German Capture of Leros in 1943...

[Mike Oberly]

Los-

Any suggestions on good books on the Crete campaign?

Thanks,

Mike

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Thanks for the link Rhet. Los, a movie on Crete would be wild. I think it would be very stressing to see the kind heavy violence like in Saving Private Ryan. The opening of that film was tough too watch, I needed a break after 5 min. The Germans can have Shwarzenegger only if he goes in with the first drop.

[Los]

Yeah Arnold can play Max Schmelling who was a wold heavyweight boxing champion (I believe) who lost to Joe Lewis. He was a Fallschirmjaeger and they of course made a big deal about it (sort of like when Elvis joined the Army).

Re: Stuff to read about Crete:

The best sources is the Official History of New Zealand forces in WWII published in 1953. There is a volume dedicated solely to Crete as well as seperate volumes for 21,22,and 23 bn. Of course it focuses pretty much on them.

The best German source is Der Kampf um Kreta by Franz Kurowski. I've only seen it in German though other stuff of his is finding it's way into English.

I would highly recommend History of the 3rd FJ Regt volume II. As I said somewhere else this has thousands of pictures just on this regt and hundreds of never before seen shots of Crete getting ready, jumping in and fighting as well as a narative of their ops there.

BTW I have not read "Ten Days to Destiny, the battle for Crete 1941" so look forward to a review when you are done.

ANyway just an interesting side note is casualties suffered by both sides. The NZ histories peg their own casualties at 15,747 out of 42,000 enaged. (this does not include those drowned on sunk ships). They originally estimated about 11k German losses out of 23k erngaged but more detailed research cut this down to about 6600 of which 4000 were killed.

German casualty returns right after the fighting had them at 1353 killed, 2611 missing, and 1928 wounded. For a total of 5892 so you can see the figures are not too far off (most of the MIA would have been found after the battle or did indeed wash up on shore (remember 324 were droned when the seaborn flotilla was scattered, 1953 NZ estimates had erroneously placed this at 5000!) On Crete there are in fact about 4000 German war graves though some (maybe up to several hundred) would have been soldiers killed during the occupation which followed. ANyway while it was pretty expensive for the Germans we paid, what, 4000 casualties including a 1000 dead for Tarawa, an island not too much bigger than Maleme airfield!

Anyway it's always interesting to see the whole research side of things and how much SWAG (scientific Wild-Ass Guessing) goes into it. BTW The ALLIES definately sat up and took very close notice to Crete after the battle. I have a box of old secret documents including a 200+ page report that when right to the Secretary of War about every lawt detail which could be put together on how the Germans took Crete. The attitude at least here in the US was, "Hey we gotta have that capability!"

The US (and UK which were sharing this info back in forth), had the luxury of learning from the mistakes which the Germans themsleves made. (Just as we learned from Tarawa also.)

BTW there is a misconception that Germans dropped without weapons. This is not totally true. Lessons had already been learned from Holland/Norway. Any German that had a Schmeiiser as his issue weapon most likely would have dropped with the SMG. All Germans dropped with Grenades and pistols. SOme said screw it and did drop with their rifles. I have seen footage on Crete where even some hardy machine gunners went out the door with MG32s in one hand and a case of ammo in the other! Quite amazing. Though what they woudl do is just before hitting the ground drop the weapons/ammo. This seems to have been left up to individual unit discretion (though I don't know down to what level, but my guess is units dropping close to their objectives would have been lugging their weapons out the door.

AFter Crete the Germans conducted a number of regt and bn level drops into combat (Tunisia, Sicily, Leros, Ardennes for example) and you can be damn sure that every unit was jumping all their weapons.

Cheers...

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-07-99).]

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

So far this book pictures the German paras as extremely determined soldiers. There are many accounts of individual firefights. The paras dropped out of the sky resulting in skirmishes all over the place. Alot of accidents. Student appears very aggressive, perhaps a bit too aggtressive at the beginning. He should have taken General lohr's advice and concentrated the attack instead of having it spread out so much. The Allied soldiers were tough as nails but running out of ammo and men.

It appears that Stundent aggressiveness paid of since he was so determined to succeed that he sent out a plane to see if Maleme airport was safe to land. It was, the Allies had left Hill 107. The book portrays Freyberg as to cautious and that he should have counter attacked the airport before the paras were reinforced.

I am at the point were the mountain division is landing at Maleme. The book states that the Germans lost more men on Crete than the Wehrmacht lost in all of WW2 since the beginning of the war.

So far I think that Student made an error in his battleplan, the attack was too spread out. If Freyberg was not as cautious while the paras were so tenacious, the operation would have been lost.

But that is 20/20 hindsight. We'll see how well I fare in Combat Mission.