NIGHT FIGHTING

[SGTRock]

Forgive me if I'm being rehtorical guys but,

I read about night fighting in one of the threads, couldn't really find it again unfortunatly.

One Question:

While night fighting are you going to be able to use flares?

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Guest Big Time Software]

We are trying to figure out if this was common practice in WWII. Flares have only limited use as it totally screws up night vision. Moon can go on and on about this in great detail as he sells night vision devices for a living

Anybody that has any info on the use of WWII starshells or other flare devices explicitly designed for illuminating the enemy are asked to speak up!

Steve

[Colin]

I know that star shells were used often by naval forces at sea but I doubt they could use such large guns to provide accurate close support for infantry.

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"The object of war is not

to die for your country,

but to make the other

bastard die for his"

George Pat

[SGTRock]

I know when I was in the forces they were quite common to use durring a night exercise.

I would think; (not know) they would be used in WWII, they were quite handy and I'm sure that they had starshells that could be shot off from a type of flare gun...but don't quote me on that...I have to do some more research on it.

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Los]

Well without even picking up a single reference flares and starshells were common fare in night operations during WW2. Particularly during defensive operations. It is true that there were not a great many of night operations during WW2 part form the common work of raiding patrolling, pre-attack infiltration and other intelligence gathering. But flares and starshells were used liberally on the defense. The bulge was one operation that saw the Germans use spotlights shown onto low hanging clouds to create artificial light.

When you get to the Pac of course you gte many instances of night offensive operations being used particularly by the Japanese. The attacker usually tries to keep out of the dark nutil the last minute while the defender will usually pop flares or starclusters at the slightest provocations.

Night operations usually see (saw) the attacker making small probes at first to try and get the defenders to fire off their crew served weapons and give away their positions.

For accounts of night operations in WW2 check out: "Night Drop" (SLA Marshall), Most any Bulge account, (For the spotlight use) "On The Front Lines" (John Ellis), "Guadalcanal" (Richard Frank) "Fighting in Hell" (various authors), "On Infantry" John English, and Small Unit Actions during the German campaign in Russia. (DA Pam 20-269) If you can get your hands on FM21-75 (the early pre 1970s version is best ) Combat Training and the individual soldier and patrolling or FM7-70 Light infantry platoon and squad has whole sections on night fighting most of it without the use of modern technical gadgets. Most of it is lifted from ealier manuals dating back to WW2 experience. Now if I can get my friend to return my copy of The German squad in combat) they probably have stuff too!

Cheers...

Los

[Los]

P.S. WHat would be cool is that in night operations for CM you would have map areas outside of night vison range or outside of spotlight, flare, or starshell range to be darkened, greyed out etc. And you could see flashes from enemy positions. Would really add to fog of war and look nice.

[SGTRock]

Thanks for the info Los! I knew it was there somewhere...

I think flares should be in. Just think your sneaking up on an enemy position partially using night as your cover and a starshell goes off... I say this because I had an incident when it happened luckily my squad had cover behind a bush but, if it had been one minute earlier... Well, you get the picture... I'd rather play it then experince it for real (although it was just an assault excercise)

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[rwcanuck]

I have a photo of a Panther Ausf G with night vision mounted on the turret. Though not widely used they did see action in the latter years of the war and were quite effective. Use of these "babies" in CM might be difficult but wouldn't it be nice to see.

RW

[SGTRock]

Hey Canuk

Not if you were on the other side of it...

can we say; BOOM.

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Delaware Dave]

I read an account (I think that it was in A Time for Trumpets) of a German tank firing a flare a little behind some American tanks. The American tanks were then silhouetted and made excellent targets. In addition to being silhouetted, the American tanks could no longer see very well as they were basically standing next to a light source and looking into the dark.

[Ken Talley]

The German Furher Begliet Brigade (?) used that flare tactic in an armored night assualt just north of St Vith during the Bulge battle. If I remember correctly, they took out 5 Shermans that had been blinded by those flares almost immediately and broke the defense.

Ken

[Guest JonS]

I have a related question regarding smoke. Can someone give me a succinct explanation of how CM will handle smoke, both from burning vehicles/trees/buildings, and more importantly from deliberate sources (smoke grenades, generators, and artillery)?

From the screenshots of the AAR game all I can see of the smoke is a solid pillar rising vertically, that fades out after a while (shame about that last mobile Sherman ). Now, the smoke I've seen doesn't really behave like that... Also, can you direct fire to an area that is currently out of LOS - for example behind a think smoke screen - but which would otherwise be able to be fire at. What I'm getting at is; can you fire, with direct fire weapons, at screened troop movements? In some-other-games if the target is behind smoke it might as well be behind a four foot thick concrete wall, 'cos you can't fire at it.

Re-reading this, I'm fairly sure that Charles and Steve are on the ball with this, but some confirmation would be nice

Thanks

Jon Sowden

Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt

[SGTRock]

Hey JonS, not to be touchy but this thread is on NIGHT not SMOKE. Although I think it's equally important for you to get you point across why not open another post on SMOKE?

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Rock]

I'm pretty sure that if you read the AAR of 38th Calvary Recon Squadron for Jan 1945 they used hundreds of Trip Flare in their defense of the Siegfried line. "The trip flare continued to prove it's value over that of the anti-personnel mine. On several occasions they were tripped by animals which were easily identified in the illumination and would have made simple targets had they been Germans. The explosion of a booby-trap warning may get the tripper, but it reveals nothing and leaves the defender literally in the dark, causing unnecessary tension which generally results in confusion and a waste of ammunition."

You can find the AAR's at this web site

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/AtoZ.htm.

If you also look at the Combat Lessons No.4 War Department Pamphlet, 1944 it will show how to make a Silent Sentry.

All of the AAR's for the 38th Calvary Recon Squadron is interesting, you find:

Bridges that are blown as they reach them, Sep 1944.

There are several occurrences of tank destroyers and medium tanks being used in battery.

Also look at the supplemental Dec 1944 AAR and pay attention to the amount of artillery used. Fionn and Martin did not have adequate artillery support for an assault on a town.

[This message has been edited by Rock (edited 09-24-99).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

Id have to check these figures to be sure, but I believe that in the initial battles of the bulge, that Aliies had around 1000 artey pieces and the Germans had around 1500 artey and rockets for the entire area. The allies arty in the Buldge we very sparesly allotted.

Personally I think that in the scenerio the amounts given were realistic. I certainally couldnt imagine the Germans sparing any more for such a small town. Could be wrong on those figures but I dont think sooooo, Ill check them out when I get a chance

[SGTRock]

Now the question is BTS how long would it take to impliment Flares(Starshells) into CM, or would it even be possible??

I mean seriously I don't want the game delayed anymore than possible, but if it's a realitively easy thing to do, why not? Sounds like history is backing me up here, so far?

Whadda ya think?

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Rock]

It's not the number of artillery pieces, it's 30 minutes into the engagement and both sides used artillery sparingly and they are effectively out of artillery support.

[Brian Rock]

Off-topic but...

Gee we have a lot of Rocks on this list. Even I can't keep track anymore.

[Moon]

rwcanuck, I would be really interested in seeing that picture with the Panther and the night vision device mounted. Any chance to email it to me?

[Greg Deych]

My impression is that flare pistols were fairly widely available on both sides, and used for illumination as well as signalling.

[tss]

As far as I know generally only defenders in fixed positions used flares in combat.

If there was an abundant supply of flares a guard on duty would shoot a flare now and then and look that nothing moved in the no-man's-land. However, most of time the guard shoot a flare only when he suspected something. If he saw an attacker he would then sound alarm and continue firing flares to illuminate the ground to provide good targets for fire.

I've read about a couple of ambushes when an enemy patrol was advancing over open ground and defenders let them close before suddenly firing 3-4 flares leaving the attackers clearly illuminated and blinded.

Losing night vision is not so big issue, since in the long run muzzle flashes of guns cause same effect.

- Tommi

[Guest titan]

the time i spent in the mortars (NZ Army)we used a round we called para illum,before we fired it we could set the timmer at the top of the round for what delay we wanted it to deploy after it was fired ,it would then drift down by parachute for about 1min approx and light up an area of one grid square (sq km) so it was possible for us to fire a number of these using a number of tubes of course and also by repeating our fire mission to light up a large area of the enemy positions for as long as we wanted depending on the amount of bombs we had,however they were only effective in good weather ie:no wind ,they werent very sufisticated (exuse spelling) you know who, so they could have been available during ww2 i havent read any evidence that they were but they may have been possible during that period.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Here is some interesting information about German night sights. (Source: www.achtungpanzer.com )

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>German Infrared Night-Vision Devices - Infrarot-Scheinwerfer

In 1936, AEG was ordered to start the development of infrared night-vision devices and in 1939, first successful prototype unit for use with 37mm Pak 35/36 L/45 anti-tank gun was constructed. In autumn of 1942, unit for use with 75mm PaK 40 L/46 anti-tank gun was constucted and was also mounted on Marder II (Sd.Kfz.131).

In mid 1943, first tests with infrared night-vision (Nacht Jager) devices and telescopic rangefinders mounted on Panther started. Two different arrangements / solutions were created and used on Panther tanks.

Solution A - Sperber (Sparrow Hawk) was made up of one 30cm infrared searchlight and image converter operated by the commander - FG 1250. From late 1944 to March of 1945, some Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausf G (and other variants) mounted with FG 1250, were succesfully tested. From March to April of 1945, approximately 50 Panthers Ausf G (and other variants) mounted with FG 1250, saw combat service on the Eastern Front and Western Front. Panthers with IR operated with SdKfz.251/20 Uhu (Owl) half-track with 60cm infra-red searchlight and Sd.Kfz.251/21 Falke (Falcon). This solution could be easily mounted on any type of armored fighting vehicle.

Solution B - Second more complicated arrangement / solution was "Biwa" (Bildwandler), which provided driver, gunner and commander with one 30cm infrared searchlight and image converter. Various variants of Panthers were converted and mounted with "Biwa". It was reported that tests were successful, but there is very few combat reports from the Eastern or Western Front. One combat report is by a veteran of 1st SS Panzer Regiment of 1st SS Panzer Division "LSSAH", who states that few Panthers equipped with infrared night-vision devices were used in 1944/45 during the Ardennes Offensive.

In addition, it is reported that single unit equipped with Jagdpanthers also received and used infrared night-vision devices.

Crews of infrared night-vision devices mounted vehicles were also armed with MP44 assault rifles fitted with infrared night-vision device - Vampir (Vampire). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if these devices were in common enough use to include in CM, but it's interesting anyway.

[Fionn]

From an article I wrote on panthers a while ago...

The infrared night-fighting equipment mounted on Panthers consisted of a screened car-type headlamp with a 12Volt 200 Watt transmitter lamp; an infrared receiver gunsight for use with the main armament; a gun elevation control mechanism; several 12 Volt batteries as power source and a transformer. The code name for the equipment was variously recorded as either "Puma" or "Sperba" (Sparrow) depending on who one asked. It is interesting to note that some of the first infrared devices in Soviet Service after World War Two were also nicknamed the "Sparrow" in Russian. Coincidence or evidence of their lineage? I leave that to you to decide.

This is a shot of a captured Panther mounting the FG1250 suite. I don't know how common the speckled camouflage pattern was though.

My sources state it would have been quite an unorthodox camouflage pattern, perhaps specific to units constituted for night combat.

The equipment had to be lined up against a source of light at 600 metres before going into action to calibrate it properly. The tank commander alone could traverse, elevate or depress both the screened headlight and the receiver, by means of special hand grips. Only the tank commander could see where he was going or spot a target. The rest of the crew worked blind on his orders

over the intercom.

In evaluating this system we must accept that while it did give the German Army some night-capable vehicles it was not a thermal imager or equivalent system. What actually happened in practice was that the commander would find the target by sweeping the IR searchlight over the terrain in front of the tank, then bring the gun to bear himself, aim it, give the range, main gun elevation etc and give the gunner the order to fire. While this system was undoubtedly better than using white light searchlights to illuminate targets it did not create EFFECTIVE night combat vehicles, rather it gave certain vehicles the ability to engage in very primitive, close range combats with only slightly better efficiency than searchlight-equipped vehicles. Given the cost and design trade-offs necessary to install such a system its inclusion must be realised to be of dubious value.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Moon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Losing night vision is not so big issue, since in the long run muzzle flashes of guns cause same effect.

- Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite true. Short flashes of light, even bright light, have no real effect on human night vision, only for a few seconds at most. However, after one or two minutes looking at a battlefield illuminated by a flare, you lose your night vision for 5-39 minutes, depending on your age and how bright it was. I could go on and on, but I don't think anybody would listen

Fionn said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>While this system was undoubtedly better than using white light searchlights to illuminate targets it did not create EFFECTIVE night combat vehicles, rather it gave certain vehicles the ability to engage in very primitive, close range combats with only slightly better efficiency than searchlight-equipped vehicles. Given the cost and design trade-offs necessary to install such a system its inclusion must be realised to be of dubious value.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they were only effective as long as the other side didn't have any night vision equipment available. That IR beam could be seen for miles with a night vision scope and the tank using it would be an easy target.

Nowadays there are systems that don't need active IR illumination (thermal imaging and Gen. 3 starscopes). I also know that there are infrared flares which provide extra illumination for night vision systems, but I doubt that they would have been used in WWII at all.