Mortar Sections Not Firing

[smbecket]

In my current game I have a Panzergrenadier BN (motorized). Each Co. has a mortar section with 2 81mm mortars. They do not have radios. The 1st Co. mortar section was on the map at game start as was a mortar section from the Aufklarung BN. The 1st Co. mortar section was deployed at game start while the Aufklarung section moved to a setup location. Both of them have been in contact with all the BN spotters and the FO since the beginning of the game and have been firing missions with no problem. The 2nd and 3rd mortar sections arrived as reinforcements; both were set up when they arrived. They could not fire as all BN spotters and the FO listed them as "Out of Contact". I moved them to new locations closer the front and set them up again and the response was the same: "Out of Contact". Finally, I moved two HQ's with radios to the mortar sections locations; the 3rd Plt HQ to the 3rd Co. mortar section and the 4th Co. HQ to the 2nd Co. mortar section. These HQ's have contact to the respective mortar section but none of the other spotters do; still "Out of Contact". Why? This has never happened in any of my games before. None of the mortar sections have radios but two can fire and two can not. Surely the HQ's with radios that are now adjacent to the sections should be able to relay to the spotters. If anyone has experienced this before or has any input it would be greatly appreciated. Especially BFC if you see this post. The enemy is advancing and I am lacking half of my mortar strength and the majority of the rounds!

[JonS]

I suspect, based on the description, your original two mortars had a radio near them at set up - either an HQ, or perhaps in a vehicle - that enabled a complete C2 chain to the spotter.

I suspect that your two reinforcement mortars either do not have a complete C2 chain, OR that the C2 chain they're a member of does not include the spotters you're trying to use.

FWIW, I've had problems with this too. Mortar sections in mortar platoons are a bit of an exception to the normal C2 rules. The mortar detachment has to link to the section HQ, then to the mortar platoon HQ, then to the support company HQ, and upwards. What often happens - to me - is that the mortars are linked to their section HQ no problem, but the section HQ doesn't have a radio and so can't link to the platoon HQ and the C2 chain is broken. Generally, i now try to ensure that all the mortars are fairly close togehter, and the tree through their section HQs up to latoon HQ is quite short in terms of on-map distance. That is, the mortars have 'eye' or 'mouth' C2 to their section HQ, and the section HQs have 'eye' or 'mouth' C2 to their platoon HQ. The whole platoon often ends up within 100m or less of each other.

It's the radio-less section HQs that bollix things, compared to "normal" C2 chains.

[smbecket]

JonS: some of what you said is logical. The 1st Co. mortar section was next to the BN Cdr. for a turn or two as the game started. But there were no spotters in position at this time as all units were moving forward. The Aufklarung mortar section, however, was in its tracks and moved about a Km before deploying in a farm compound with no other unit anywhere near. It is firing fine. I will bring the 2nd Co.'s 4th Plt HQ unit back to its mortar section and see if that provides C2. I find it difficult to believe, however, that any radio equipped unit in a PZG infantry BN would not be capable/allowed to act as a relay for fire missions for critical assets such as these. That would be part of normal training for any tactical unit, especially the Germans, who had far fewer radios. If the game does not reflect this it is, IMHO, not reflecting the importance of having these mortars readily on call when needed. Edit: One fact I forgot to mention is that all HQs, whether from the PzG BN, the Aufklarung BN or the Tank BN can call fire missions in to any of the 81 mm mortars, the 120 mm mortars or the 105 mm arty. They are not restricted to their own BN assets.

[JonS]

Yeah, but don't forget that radio nets tend to be for exclusive use, and radios in the 1940s were pretty much stuck on a single freq. To take an example I'm somewhat familiar with, in a UK armd regt there was a regimental-net, and three (or four?) squadron-nets. Two tanks from different sqns with fully-functional squadron-net radios that were parked within metres of each other wouldn't be able to talk since their respective sqn-nets would be on different freqs.

The point being; in real life, the mere presence of a radio at each node isn't enough. CMBN doesn't model discrete radio nets (unfortunately ... I think?) but it does enforce some other restrictions on the unfettered movement of information.

[eltorrente]

Yeah, but don't forget that radio nets tend to be for exclusive use, and radios in the 1940s were pretty much stuck on a single freq. To take an example I'm somewhat familiar with, in a UK armd regt there was a regimental net, and three (or four?) squadron nets. Two tanks from different sqns with fully function squadron net radios that were parked within metres of each other wouldn't be able to talk since their respective sqn nets would be on different freqs.

The point being; mere presence of a radio at each node isn't enough. CMBN doesn't model radio nets (unfortunately ... I think) but it does enforce some other restrictions on the unfettered movement of information.

That's true as far as soldiers' individual radios are concerned. However, all you need is any vehicle with a radio to be parked with 20meters or so of the mortar squad, and they'll be able to make use of it.

EDIT: oh- you know this already, since you posted about vehicle's radios in this thread already.

[smbecket]

JonS: Yes, I understand the problem with different radio nets. That is precisely why my current game situation is so illogical. The HQ units from the Aufklarung BN can call in fire from the PzG BN 81/120 mortars and do not even experience a time increase in the fire mission. But an Inf. Plt HQ from the same Co. as one of my "Out of Contact" mortar sections can not act as a relay for the section when directly adjacent. That does not make sense, at least to me.

[JonS]

Something is breaking your C2 links, but I can't figure out for you specifically what based on text descriptions. My best suggestion is that you go into the editor, buy the exact same forces, then muck about with your new test scenario to figure out what combinations of C2 links work. I am confident you will find a pattern or two (and I'd be interested in what you do come up with). Then apply that to your scenario.

[Vanir Ausf B]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1272591#post1272591

[smbecket]

JonS: well, I finally got my 3rd Co. Mortar Plt. Ldr. back close to the mortar section and the C2 link was established. It was amusing because on my last replay turn he drove close to the mortars when the movement ended; close enough for visual contact. When I checked some of the spotters the mortars were in contact and ready to fire. I also finally realized why the mortars with the initial forces had been able to fire the entire game - the BN Cdr. is in a cathedral tower right above the mortar section. I do not know why that did not jump out at me a long time ago. One of the command group is just shouting corrections down to the mortar crew. I still believe the inability of one of the rifle plt. HQs and the 4th Co. HQ to relay fire missions when they were adjacent to the mortar sections is a major flaw. Military units are adept at improvising on the fly and no BN Cdr. would tolerate having a major asset sitting there and not being able to fire.

While it was great to find out what was going on with the PzG BN mortars it does not explain why the Aufklarung mortar section can fire. They drove to their firing location in a walled farm compound where they set up. They have no radio and they have not had any HQ unit from their or any other BN with them.

Vanir Aufs B: Thanks for the link. I remember reading that post a long while back. Very good info. I printed it this time.

[akd]

Military units are adept at improvising on the fly and no BN Cdr. would tolerate having a major asset sitting there and not being able to fire.

I think that is overstated. Very well-trained military units are adept at improvising on the fly within the limitations of their technology. CM is quite lenient on the limitations radio technology of this time.

CM does not currently have a system for task organizing on the fly, and probably will not have one until reasonable restrictions can be put in place. The scenario editor (and QB purchase screen), however, allows a great deal of flexibility in task organizing where the player thinks it is appropriate. You just have to accept that if the scenario you are playing does not have all the company mortars task-organized under direct control of the battalion HQ, then you should probably not try to use them that way.

While it was great to find out what was going on with the PzG BN mortars it does not explain why the Aufklarung mortar section can fire. They drove to their firing location in a walled farm compound where they set up. They have no radio and they have not had any HQ unit from their or any other BN with them.

Presumably they are still near their 250 HT with a radio? This is specifically why the ability to share nearby vehicle radios was added. Per doctrine, these armored mortar sections where meant to be able to operate independently with their vehicle (even firing from the vehicle, which will hopefully be implemented someday).

p.s. I have family in Maryville and am up there once or twice a year.

[smbecket]

AKD: I must respectfully disagree; not so much overstated as badly stated. Let me comment in more detail. The German forces have far fewer radios and must, therefore, use them with maximum efficiency. Each Co. has 81 mm mortars and the BN has 120 mm mortars. These weapons can be critical to the success or failure of the BN's operations on either attack or defense. If the fortunes of war/military necessity remove a Co.'s mortar Plt HQ from the scene neither the Co. Cdr. or the BN Cdr. are going to allow this loss to result in the mortar section sitting in place and twiddling their thumbs. In my situation the 3rd Co. mortar Plt HQ was on detached duty and the mortars could not fire. Since the 3rd Co. was in reserve at the time the Co. Cdr. sent his 3rd Inf. Plt. HQ to act as the relay for the mortars. Likewise, the 2nd Co. mortar Plt. HQ was on detached service and the BN Cdr. sent the 4th Co. HQ to act as relay. Each was at the mortar section location but neither could act as the relay. That, to me, is nonsensical. These are HQ units from the BN with radios on the BN frequency. You, the player, are acting as the BN and Co. Cdr.s and if you order this action it should be carried out. Not to mention that something very similar would be carried out IRL. The mortars would not be left "Out of Contact"! Please excuse if I sound preachy.

On the matter of the Aufklarung mortar section. They have 2 250/7s and 1 250/1. None of them have radios. But they are firing.

Where do you live now? We are in the process of buying a new house in Canton, GA, and will be moving late this year.

[JonS]

True enough, and not just the Germans ( ) but every military would do that. However, organising and communicating an alternate C2 chain takes time. More time than you have in any given scenario.

[smbecket]

JonS: How were the German radio nets organized? Were there Co. nets and a BN net, all on different frequencies; in other words did the Co. Cdr.'s have two radios? That would make a big difference as far as trying to use someone from a different Co. but shouldn't matter if they were from the same Co.

[JonS]

How were the German radio nets organized?

In terms of specifics, I have no idea. I expect they had a hierachical network of networks that broadly mirrored their TOE tactical organisation.

By 1944 the Western Allies were all but awash in radios which meant they could be quite profligate with them, and have dedicated nets down to a fairly low level. From an efficiency point of view that can be seen as wasteful, as not all radios and nets were equally busy all the time. On the other hand, it did mean that the nets that were busy weren't additionally burdened with nebulous rubbish washing back and forth.

The Germans typically had a shortage of radios, which would mean that the available nets would have had a greater utilisation, leaving less "bandwidth" for emergency surges of activity. It'd also mean that conversations the Allies would usually conduct over wireless the Germans would have to do face-to-face or over field phones - both methods being slower and less nimble.

As a general rule, radios in the 1940s were primitive. While it was possible to tune them onto a different frequency, it's my understanding that that was a time consuming and technical task - the kind of thing done as seldom as possible. FWIW, I've been caught in a situation where we were supposed to be monitoring and using two radio nets*, but only had one functional radio - it's a PITA. You inevitably miss all sorts of stuff that's going on on the other net, even though the radio we had could switch freqs in a matter of seconds. I hate to think what that would have been like with a 1940s radio - I expect they wouldn't have bothered, and just dragged everybody up to a common "higher" net, and maybe kicked the most junior callsigns off to deconflict the net.

Jon

* actually it was three nets, but the third was rarely used and didn't affect us much anyway.

[Sgt Schultz]

And by the by... for CM QB purposes, there is a way if one wishes to match(or even exceed) the number of radios that the Allies have, as the German player.

Motorized Panzergrenadiers have radios all the way to platoon level, along with radios with all mortars. Extremely robust C2 net, with XOs at company as well as Btn level. If the scouts see something, as well as their own platoon HQ, and all HQs are stationary... then the info goes out quickly. Very few ways to be unable to call in support fire, whether on-map or off. Park a Halftrack near a mortar and it is on the net for any Lt to call upon. Arrival time, number of spotting rounds, and accuracy may be affected though.

64 points for a Veteran 251/1 halftrack(same as regular). Small arms ammo, transport, an extra MG if you can find a spare trooper, and guaranteed radio contact with mortars if you wish. Make it easy on yourself.

[Michael Emrys]

64 points for a Veteran 251/1 halftrack(same as regular). Small arms ammo, transport, an extra MG if you can find a spare trooper, and guaranteed radio contact with mortars if you wish. Make it easy on yourself.

Sure. You can do that and I won't claim to be above it myself. But generally speaking, HTs were in short supply in the German army, so this gambit might make your game just a little ahistorical. You might want to clear it with your opponent first to avoid bad feelings later.

Michael