Will Combat Mission have copy protection?

[Thomas Davie]

Subject says it all. If copy protection is involved, will it be a document check? CD required to be in the drive?

Will I be able to back up my CD that I've purchased?

Yeah, it's a can of worms that has just been opened up, but what the heck.

Or, is the target audience of the game small enough that you can go with a digital signature?

Thanks

Tom

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thomas, we haven't figured this one out yet. HOWEVER, I will say that NO WAY are we doing a manual check. BLECH! That form of copy protection always ticked me off Most likely we will require the CD to be in the drive. This is less for copy protection purposes than the CD will probably be full up. I know there are some people out there that don't mind a 600+MB install, so we will keep that in mind.

Personally, we don't mind people backing up a CD if that is what it is for. However, CDs that are taken care of very, very rarely have problems so I personally don't think it is worth the $4 or so for the CDR

Steve

[Thomas Davie]

Thanks for the response.

No, I wouldn't mind a 600Mb install, and I also would not mind a $4 cdr backup of a game that I would end up paying approx $100 Cdn for once duty/exchange, etc is factored in.

You're right, a manual check is not desirable (what if you lose the damn thing?). I'll be honest; I resent being treated as a 'potential' criminal by other software companies, and simply do not purchase from them any more. I understand IF you choose to utilize copy protection, but I wouldn't support it and I do think it would be wrong for a number of reasons. But you have to do what you have to do.

I do BEG you not to use copy protection though.

Tom

[Guest PatB_TGN]

Thomas Davie wrote [i'll be honest; I resent being treated as a 'potential' criminal by other software companies, and simply do not purchase from them any more.]

Hey there Thomas,

Getting a little tired of Talonsoft's copy protection format? Ah shucks, why?

-Patrick

[Thomas Davie]

Well Patrick(?) I guess I'm getting tired of any kind of copy protection in my old age. Literally, it has gotten to the point where if a company is not capable of trusting me, I am not capable of purchasing from them.

I don't know. Life sucks....and then another Candian NHL team moves to the er. goddam US

Tom

[Guest PatB_TGN]

Yuppers, it's me! I 'guess' I know where you are coming from. But some of these companies have more bills than income. So, I don't really fault them when they decide to protect their earned buck.

The real problem with Talonsoft arose when their CD1 hit the market. People were just zipping up all the new scenarios and shipping them out to their buddies. Ergo: Copy protection.

So if the folks here decide to go with the extreme copy protection format, theit ain't accusing you, personally, of being a criminal.

But if their software goes the way of Warez overnight... we Wargamers might lose a fine computer company.

-Patrick

[Guest Big Time Software]

Patrick/Thomas,

FAR too many people think nothing of giving a copy to a friend or (worse) uploading it for others to have for free. And that means lost sales to us. At the very least it means #@&holes playing our games without ANY RIGHT TO DO SO. Stealing our stuff only hurts us. Hurting us hurts our games. This problem is made worse by the fact that we WILL sell less #s of games through the Web. Every stolen sale from Battlefront.com is like 10 from a store shelf.

It isn't a matter of us not trusting YOU, Thomas Davie, rather we don't have all that much faith in the good will of people in general. While you might never violate the agreement, 10 other people may not be so honest. What is more, we have no way to make an exception even if we *do* know you can be trusted. Asking us to trust you means we have to trust everybody. We can't be selective.

Think of this the next time you shop at *any* store. Look at all the security, look at all the anti-theft scanners, devices, cameras, undercover security people, etc. Do they trust you specifically? Probably not. Do they trust people in general? No. Is there any reason why the should? Unfortunately not.

The question is, if you were in business for yourself, and you had to either trust everybody or not trust nobody, would you be so quick to put your faith in humanity? As software developers our only safeguard against pirating is copy protection, and even that can be hacked around. There are different forms of protection, for sure, but it is an either/or kind of thing. Not much of a choice from our standpoint. Still, we haven't made a final decision.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-14-99).]

[Fionn]

Steve et al,

Copy protect Combat Mission. Personally speaking virtually every game I play needs to be in the CD drive to be played (even though I usually do maximum installs).

As far as I am concerned having to put the CD in the CD drive is a small price to pay if it stops $10,000 worth of lost revenue.

As a small company its a matter of survival to keep the game from being copied etc etc so I think you should definitely put in some form of copyrighting.

Perhaps a registration number might be a good way to go although if people can pass the registration number on to others in warez versions then it is going to be totally useless unfortunately.

But, whatever you do put in some form of copy protection to protect yourselves from the unscrupulous ones out there.

[BDW]

The more copy protection the better!

Seriously.

I don't even care if it is that "What is the third word on the fourth line in the second paragraph on the 11th page of the manual" kind of thing. I absolutely HATE it when I BUY a game and then someone says to me "Dude, you BOUGHT that? You loser! I got it for free from this one website!"

So I say load on the copy protection. If I buy something, then I want EVERYONE else to have to buy it, too, damnit. No matter how annoying the copy-protection is, nothing is more annoying then someone laughing at you becuase you obey copyright law.

Just my two cents.

[CRourke]

I think at least that piracy is a bit less of a risk with a complex wargame. Most "Warez Dudez" are either into it for the challenge or to get the new release of quake 7 before anyone else does. Picture if you will 16 year old computer geeks going "Hey man, stop playing goldeneye, I just bootlegged a copy of Tigers on the Prowl!"

Now its true that the most damaging form of piracy is probably conducted by good seemingly upstanding adults.. but my point here is that the potential for lost sales of something like CM aren't as high because many of the people who "aquire" a copy probably weren't going to buy their own in any case.

A good example of a situation where every stolen copy IS lost revenue would be OS's. Every who is using that ripped off copy of windows would have had to pay for it if they hadn't had that friend who loaned them the CD. Odd that there isn't more social disapproval of theft in this form. Well, then again, it IS microsoft.

Anyway, like most everyone, I hate copy protection, but if its the necessary evil that will make cm and bf a success, by all means use it. Even if it has to be a manual lookup <shudder>. Or how about a code wheel <double shudder>.

Chris R

[Moon]

Please, no "on which page is this symbol" or code wheel stuff... =) It offers little protection (copy the manual or wheel) and is very annoying to everybody.

I absolutely understand that copying IS robbery and therefore absolutely do not mind when developers protect their games. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is almost no way of protecting CDs from professinal pirates. I think that requiring the CD to be in the drive is the best solution - it discourages casual pirates and most people are used to it anyway.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Chris, while Warez hackers are less likely to copy up a strategy game, they do. I've seen plenty of them (I used to look for Sierra stuff when I worked there). Whole CDs too. And since CM is "3D" it is an instant target.

The #1 form of piracy, however, is *not* Warez people, but everyday gamers. "Dude, check out this really cool game I got?" "Oooohhh can I have a copy?" "Sure, just bring back the CD by tonight".

The question of if this looses us a sale or not (some will be lost for SURE) is not the point. NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO USE OUR HARD WORK AND INVESTMENTS WITHOUT PAYING US FOR IT. PERIOD. If I could put a virus on that CD to wipe out the harddrive of someone illegally using one of our games I would. But of course I can't do that Point is that we aren't making games for pirates, only for paying customers. If you aren't one, you don't deserve to play it. End of story.

And as BDW states this is also a point of contention for honest, paying customers. I hate it when I see someone I know playing the same exact thing as me, but I plunked down my $50. It sucks to play by the rules when someone else takes the dishonest way.

As I said above, we will most likely require the CD in the drive. This doesn't prevent CDR burning (damn them for getting so cheap!) or Warez people from uploading, but it does cut out probably 90% of the total piracy. Since most people are going to have to put the CD in anyways (not many do a 600MB install), and there is nothing further required of the player (serial number, manual lookups, etc.), we feel this is very reasonable. The inconvenience factor is small and the protection high. Making more restrictive copy protection hits diminishing returns pretty quickly.

Steve

[Boris Balaban]

One question is will you be able to play on 2 computers via serial cable? You may have answered it before sorry.

The other if you play on a local network or serial cable will you have to have 2 CDs (one in each machine)? Unlike The Perfict General 2 you only need 1 CD for 2 to play.

[CRourke]

Have you considered some sort of hard written serial # protection as well? It could be used to prevent duplicates from being used together in a multiplayer game. The # could also be passed (or given by the user) when downloading any subsequent patches. Just asking for it would make a pirate nervous, and it would allow you to keep tabs on the spread of dupes.

Will more than 1 cd be required for network multiplay? It would be nice if there was some sort of "network spawn" install that would allow multiplay. CD verification could still be provided by swapping the disk.

Chris R

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

The danger of registration numbers when games are bought in stores is that someone can buy and return the game but steal the registration number.

However, CM is being sold through the internet. So that shouldn't happen.(no refund or even if there was a refund, the registration number would be cancelled and replaced.)

Again, everybody that buys the game has to do so from one place, Battlefront.com. All you have to do is keep a data base as to who you sold what registration number. So if you see the same registration number showing up at the same time at CM's multiplayer site, you know who lent someone a copy.

[Thomas Davie]

Steve; here is my take on various forms of copy protection.

1) Document check. It's pretty unobtrusive and simple. I don't mind having to type in the 5th word from the 3rd paragraph on the 7th page. But, people do lose manuals. I've lost my Steel Panthers 1 manual and my Battleground Waterloo one as well. What would I do then. Couple that with the fact that manuals are easily photocopied or converted into pdf format....well, it's not much of a form of protection is it? Add in the fact that a doc check can easily be cracked and you ask yourself 'why bother'?

2) CD required to be in the drive. Not quite so unobtrusive as a doc check. Plus I don't want to lug around the CD when I use my laptop. The drives do break down, cd's do get stuck, and the constant wear and tear on the cd's does wear them out. Admittedly very small %'s of cd's go, but I have seen it happen. Steel Panthers 1 was in my 2x drive for 6 months solid. I'm on my second copy now Again, the cd check is pretty easy to crack; why bother. Now, add that in to copy protection method #3 and I've got a real problem.

3) A CD that can't be copied. Talonsoft's West Front is an example (supposedly). I mean, if you can't copy it, the problem is solved, right? Nope, unfortunately I will no longer play a game with the original CD in the drive. So I had to look around for a program that would accurately read a CD sector by sector and copy it slowly, laboriously, tortously to the hard drive, and then burn it. I use the burned copy to play the game with. Oh yeah, the copy protection method that Talonsoft used on the West Front CD rendered it unplayable on some Gateway computers and Mitsumi CDrom drives until a patch was issued. In other words, if you're 'dedicated' enough, the non copyable CD can be gotten around.

So who is protected from someone who is determined to steal a piece of software? No one in my opinion Who gets hurt by attempts to protect a company from software theft? The customer....sometimes.

Here's something to consider. Most 'warez' groups steal software either in the late beta stage, or as the software is being duplicated for packaging. For your beta testers, why not ensure that each seperate copy has a distinct digital signature? That way, if copies do start to float around, you can tell who leaked the game. For duplication....well, take the master to the company yourself, watch the CD's getting burned yourself, or package them by hand.

But even these proposals will not stop your game being pirated if some *sshole wants to. Yeah, it burns me when I pay full $ for a game and some guy gets it for free; but it burns me even more when a game is copy protected in some defeatable manner, I pay full $ for it and the guy stll gets it for free (and I'm left with some minor, niggling problem because of it).

Something else to consider; most copies of pirated games are version 1.0 The unpatched version which usually contains some small niggling bugs. Warez groups do not support their 'releases' unlike you, the legitimate company. Require the CD to be in the drive when the game is patched, but not otherwise. The warez groups will not hunt down and patch the patches so they will run without the CD in the drive. Couple that with the fact that you could require 'identical' versions of the game to be used in multiplayer games, and this might help a bit.....

If an opponent said to me 'uh, i don't have the 1.03 patch' or 'it won't work', I might be suspicious.

Another idea; allow people with a credit card to purchase a digitally signed crack that removes all copy protection. I don't know.

And so on....

Sorry for being so long winded, but you can kinda get the idea that I am upset by copy protection in any form.

Tom

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I think that having word checks is bothersome. I hate having to look up the 3rd word in the fith para on the 52 page.

As far as used cds go. Why not have policy to replace a used cd for the replacement costs?

I think this is the first time a company can automatically have a list of all the people that bought thier game.That should help.

[Dallas]

If it was MY game, I would hunt down and use the most immpossible to crack system known to man. I wouldn't pander to the wimpy honest end user concerned about being 'inconvenienced' because the 'inconvenience' is not really a big deal. Like, having to find the cdrom to play? Taking two or three minutes to look up a word (in your well looked after manual)...come on Big Time. Give us some state of the art copy protection we can be PROUD of!

Imagine...uh, no man...I can't copy THIS cd for you because it has ultra-high-definition-trackdata-simthings!... Sleazy pirate character says...WOW! This game must be REALLY cool to have such major protection! I think I'll have to actually BUY a copy of this one!

This is actually good for the pirate because instead of having a quick look at it and discarding it because it cost him nothing and he has hundreds of other pirated games to check out before bedtime, he will actually PLAY it because IT OWES HIM MONEY! Character building really.

Yeah, lets get some ELITISM into this copy protection thing.

Dallas

[Thomas Davie]

Dallas; there has, as of yet not been a copy protection method that hasn't been defeated. Sigh; and all it does is cost the company money to implement these schemes.

Garanteed that the more 'rigorous' they are, the less transparent they are to the end user. Believe me, it's not a minor incovenience when you lose the manual, or when your cd gets stuck in the drive or gets fried.

Here's an example. Last Novemeber, Talonsoft released West Front. CD required to be in the drive and the CD supposedly non copyable. Certain Gateway owners, and people who owned Mitsumi drives could not run the game until a patch was released (I think version 1.02 but I could be wrong, can't remember). First thing I did when I got a CD burner? I copied the CD. There was no damn way I was going to lose a $105+ Cdn investment. And yeah, with duty, tax, shipping, PST and GST I did pay that much for the game.

However, had I know about the copy protection mechanism on the CD, I would not have bought the game. Combat Mission? Well, I can tolerate a doc check or the CD having to be in the drive as long as I can copy it. If not....c'est la vie.

Tom

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Yep high tech is the way to go. Words checks are old tech. CDs should not be copied. If you need a new one, get it replaced with costs. A half a$$ed security measure is as good as none at all. So if CM has secirity, (and I hoped it does), make it smart security.Not something a hacker can easily get around but just puts a burden on others. CD in drive is good. If you are going to have a word check, put a code next to every page number in the book. This way an honest player with the manual can easily skim to the page and get the code fast. Looking for paragraphs and 3rd sentances and 2nd words is not any more secure.

Also, create a warez version on purpose with a registry virus that works just after it notifies the criminal why.

[Guest PatB_TGN]

A Word lock is the oldest and easiest form of copy writes protection in existence. Even if someone doesn't come up with a utility, an image scanner will make the locked words only a nuisance.

There are innovative copy protection formats. Such as, Macrovision (http:// www.macrovision.com ) - With all good/better third party anti-pirate software, there's a price. The 'Industry' stands a much better chance of getting by with minimal protection because the bulk of their consumers are POS purchasers, but not BTS. This medium of communication leads directly to the source of their consumers. And as a procurer of the Internet wargaming community, I want to see CM's success.

-Patrick

[This message has been edited by PatB_TGN (edited 05-15-99).]

[Doug Beman]

I don't much mind copy protection schemes, as long as they're completely detailed to the player. One of my first CompWarGames was Action Stations (anybody else?) and it took me forEVER to realize that, when you typed in the word from page#line#, it was CASE SENSITIVE (d'OH!)(no mention ANYWHERE of that in my manual) Nothing weirder than having the copy protection accept only about 10% of your entries, despite the other 90% coming from the correct place.

DjB

------------------

A lot of my schoolmates called me "warmonger."

[Guest Big Time Software]

Well, we totally disagree about the manual check. I have used software since the Apple II and it has always been the most pain-in-the-ass form of copy protection out there. It also requires a *CRUD* load of work on our part. Somebody has to put in the key words, and God help us if we screw one up...

Honestly, if you don't want to tote around a very slim CD, I can't understand why you would want to carry around a 100+ page manual (no idea how long it will be, but it will be thicker than most for sure). 8.5x5.5x0.25 inches is a lot bulkier than a 4x4x0.00005 CD by a long shot.

I have also had my experience with serial numbers, and it is a joke to work around. We had something that was basically uncrackable. Within a week some Warez group had a working code posted. Waste of good programming time. Serial numbers are also easy to trade with a friend. Waste of our time for the most part. The only people that were "caught" by the system I used were honest customers that had a hard disk crash or somthing and couldn't find their reg card.

So no to manual lookups, and no to serial numbers.

We have a right to protect the nearly 4 man years of our sweat and hard work. In case nobody has noticed, there is a great deal of piracy out there, most of which comes from paying customers. This is as much a fact of life as the sun rising. It sucks that it has to be this way, but we didn't design the way the world works. We have made not a penny while making this great game. If someone has a problem with our right to reasonably protect our property and lively hood, then you may opt to pass on Combat Mission. It's a free country and you have the right to go buy some other killer wargame that has no protection instead.

CM will be copy protected, most likely by CD in the drive. Pretty much end of discussion.

Steve

[Fionn]

Steve,

Glad to see you're going with having the CD in the drive. It's by far the easiest method for me and I'm sure most others to use.

I'm just wondering what the position is as regards getting a second CD if your first breaks (SP3 did that on me a while ago and one of my PE betas bought the farm yesterday.. I thought CDROM drive was gonna explode from all the noises coming from it when I put that CD in ).

Also, I will definitely be looking into a LAN setup at some point in the future and was just wondering if I would need 2 copies to play via LAN? My FAINT hope is that the graphics will draw my fiancee into gaming (I've been trying for years and every few months try again.. So far my success rate has been ZERO but where there's a will there's a way ).

If we need to buy a 2nd CD for LAN or just as a backup (since I presume you seriously frown on making our own copies) will we be able to buy them for a discount?

The shipping costs etc would probably eat BIG chunks out of my bank balance otherwise.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Battlefront.com's return policy is pretty good. If you get something that doesn't work, it will be replaced at Battlefront.com's expense (including the S&H). If something breaks way down the road (CDs have a low failure rate compared to other media. But it can happen) it will be replaced if the reason wasn't due to user abuse. I remember being a Freshman in college. Audio CDs had just come out. I lent some of mine to a jerk who never felt like putting CDs back in their cases. If found this out the hard way with a deep gouge in one of my CDs. Needless to say I lost 3 songs of that CD as they won't play now. That was the last time I lent out CDs

In almost 12 years, and hundreds of CDs, I have only had one CD go bad on me (CD Rot). That is pretty damned good success rate. Now, if I used them for beer coasters like the jerk I lent them too... well, your mileage will vary

Steve

P.S. See other thread about "spawning" for multi-player. Something we haven't decided on yet.

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-17-99).]