Rearming AFV's ingame.

[noob]

I was looking in the CM scenario editor and noticed that CM scenarios can be made with up to a maximum of 240 turns, however AFV's would surely run out of ammo well before 120 turns, so it would be good, like foot units can, if there was the ability for AFV's to rearm in battle, that way battles up to the maximum turn count could be created.

This could be solved if an AFV rearming vehicle, or even a designated area could be added to the CM scenario unit list, then the full potential of the CM scenario editor could be exploited.

[YankeeDog]

When CMx2 first came out, there was (IIRC) a 2-hour limit on scenario length. But people whined so much that they wanted longer scenarios that BFC finally relented and doubled the time limit.

But I don't think the current iteration of the game engine was really designed with games this long in mind, and there are a whole range of things that should ideally be included to properly model battles this long. Vehicle ammo resupply is one, but there are many others: Towing/track repair. Progressive fatigue due to weather conditions (if it's really hot or cold, or otherwise inclement). Fuel supply. Battery charge for radios. Etc.

Overall, while BFC relented and gave those who wanted them long time-limit battles, I don't think adding the kinds of features that would further flesh out 2+ hour scenarios is a particularly high priority. There's lots of other stuff higher on "The List."

And it's not like these feature could be added with a few simple lines of code. Vehicle ammo resupply, in particular, is not necessarily a simple thing to model. A tank doesn't just drive up to a resupply point, grab a crate of main gun rounds on the fly, and drive off again. Main gun rounds for 75mm+ guns are big and heavy, and fully re-stocking a tank's internal supplies often requires opening of various hatches, clearing out of the shells from the previously fired rounds, etc.

There are also various tasks, such as cleaning out the barrel to remove fouling, that have to be done every so many shots for the gun to keep shooting accurately. If you're going to start modeling tanks shooting off an entire load of ammo and then re-stocking for more combat, then ideally these factors should be modeled in some way as well.

Who knows; now that we have the new upgrade systems perhaps stuff like this will be added eventually. For now, I'm just happy that we're getting editable waypoints and cover armor arcs in the near future.

[noob]

I understand your points, i just wanted to put the idea out there.

[YankeeDog]

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I certainly wouldn't complain if they found the time to work this feature into the game.

[noob]

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I certainly wouldn't complain if they found the time to work this feature into the game.

I didn't get you wrong, in fact it would be impossible to get you wrong as your response was polite and informative.

[dieseltaylor]

I question the frequency of re-arming in battle. In all the anecdotes I have read the best I an recall is that the tanks left the battlefield to find a safe haven before re-fuelling and re-arming.

However perhaps the answer is to have follow-up squadrons appear for the second-half.

[YankeeDog]

I question the frequency of re-arming in battle. In all the anecdotes I have read the best I an recall is that the tanks left the battlefield to find a safe haven before re-fuelling and re-arming.

Well, yeah. But given that CMBN is at least theoretically capable of presenting a 4-hour long battle on a 4km x 4km map, at the upper end of what's possible you could certainly have a scenario with enough time and space for a tank platoon to engage during the first hour of the scenario, pull back a 1km or so to re-arm, rest and refit for an hour, and then still have time to move back forward, catch up with the line of contact, and re-engage for the last hour or so of the scenario.

Personally, I don't have much interest in playing such a monster. I just don't have the time. But from what I understand, there are players who like playing full battalion+ sized scenarios on large maps, so at least for some players this might be a desired feature.

[noob]

I question the frequency of re-arming in battle. In all the anecdotes I have read the best I an recall is that the tanks left the battlefield to find a safe haven before re-fuelling and re-arming.

However perhaps the answer is to have follow-up squadrons appear for the second-half.

Having another version of the vehicle as a replacement waiting at the edge of the map was a workaround i was considering, however my concern was with the morale of the crew, however if the vehicle left the front line shaken or rattled one could assume that while the vehicle was being rearmed the crew could recover to a normal state, which would then mean using a replacement vehicle to simulate a rearmed vehicle wouldn't be too unrealistic.

[noob]

Well, yeah. But given that CMBN is at least theoretically capable of presenting a 4-hour long battle on a 4km x 4km map

I was planning on using 3x3 km maps for any 4 hour battles, and while not being as big as 4 x 4 km maps, would still give adequate space for falling back and rearming, especially if a covered safe area was added to the friendly rear map edges.

[Holman]

Would a tank that fired its full load of rounds in a two or three hour period be able to keep going without gun maintenance?

As I understand it, CMx2 doesn't model jamming, barrel heating, or other maintenance factors for ordnance. Maybe the inability to fire more than your original ammo load is a reasonable trade-off.

[YankeeDog]

Would a tank that fired its full load of rounds in a two or three hour period be able to keep going without gun maintenance?

Yeah; I alluded to that above.

I don't really know exactly, and obviously it depends on the specific gun & AFV (some AFVs carry a lot more ammo for the main gun than others, so what constitutes a 'full load' varies). But from what I do understand, yes; just like small arms, larger gun barrels have to be swabbed out every so often to maintain proper accuracy. The gun usually won't stop working right away, but it will start to lose precision.

But it's not a particularly long or involved procedure, and the equipment to to basic maintenance tasks like swabbing out the barrel was usually carried on the tank. So again, when you're talking about a 4-hour scenario, it's entirely plausible for a tank to fight its ammo locker dry, pull back to a rear area, take a half hour or so to clean up, reload, and do basic maintenance, and then return to the fight.

[noob]

So again, when you're talking about a 4-hour scenario, it's entirely plausible for a tank to fight its ammo locker dry, pull back to a rear area, take a half hour or so to clean up, reload, and do basic maintenance, and then return to the fight.

This is the direction i will be going, i will create a safe area at the rear friendly map edge with a substitute tank in waiting, when its counterpart moves from the front line to the safe area it will exit via an exit zone, once it exits, a 30 turn countdown starts, once that is completed the substitute tank joins the battle with a full ammo load and any subsystem damage fixed depending on the level of damage.

As far as sub systems are concerned, i will probably come up with a sliding scale of time delays for when the substitute tank can be used based on the level of subsystem damage, with 30 turns as the minimum delay, going up to 90 for severely damaged tanks.

Thanks to all for all the feedback.

[Erwin]

You can have a countdown time limited action based on a unit's exiting??

[noob]

You can have a countdown time limited action based on a unit's exiting??

Only manually, it would be down to the honesty of the player to move the substitute tank back into the action at the correct time, or down to a ruling by an umpire if part of a H2H campaign.

[John Kettler]

Martyr, YankeeDog,

Barring some major glitch, I doubt bore swabbing would be needed, but zeroing the guns is a must. This is clearly stipulated in the Tank Destroyer manuals available for perusal here http://www.tankdestroyer.net/index.p...d=37&Itemid=68 Any convoy halt of 10 minutes or greater mandates zeroing, as does a similar period out of contact with the foe. Procedures for zeroing are fully explained in the manuals.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

It might also be worth keeping in mind that on average, tanks and other AFVs were a bit more parsimonious with their main gun ammo than we normally see in the game. In the game, a tank will keep banging away with its main gun until it either blows something up, gets blown up itself, runs out of ammo, or is told to stop. In real battle, as often as not they might fire three or four rounds and if that did not achieve the desired result, try something else. And unless faced with a deadly peril (OMG, that 88 is pointed right at us!), the ROF might well be quite a bit slower than in game. Fire a shot, wait and see what that does, make corrections and fire another, etc. And even when faced with deadly peril, throwing it into reverse and zig-zagging the hell out of there was usually the order of the day.

Michael