Victory Points designer quagmire

[Gen Von Television]

I'm in it to my chin, so any pertinent advise and explanation would be very much welcomed.

Here is the case:

Force Red in defense should prevent infiltrations by force Blue.

Force Blue in attack (or Probe) should exit a determinate place on the Map, behind force Red line.

How would you assign points for this kind of scenario? What kind of targets or Parameters will you create in this specific situation to balance the action?

At this moment untested I assigned 1000 pts to Blue terrain objective (Exit), and 1000 pts for the Red to Destroy U1 assigned to the Blue Units.

Are these values global, or will they be calculated for each unit, or percentage? I still don't get it.

And what is the difference between Destroy and Destroy All?

[undercovergeek]

im probably wrong, but i stayed away from casualty parameters primarily because i think the first few weeks of the landings were at 'all costs' - it didnt matter how many casualties would be taken as long as the objective was met - and i dont believe the parameters can cover that - so i just go for objective points

[Gen Von Television]

Yep, I got that: as it is here I assigned Objective points in theory.

The Blue will gather points reaching the Exit Terrain Objective (1000) while the Red will gather its points by Destroying the Units Objective trying to force their passage to the Exit behind their defensive line.

This seems to be simple enough, but there are a few things I'm not getting: as I described above, how the 1000 points will be distributed? In percentage for the Destroyed units by the Red and as a bonus 1000 for the Blue once any one unit reaches the exit?

If this assumption is correct, will this be a balanced scenario? I'm not sure...

[mjkerner]

I have at least a dozen home-made scenarios with original maps or heavily-edited stock maps that I play, but never consider for release, because I suck at VP allocation to get a good balance, for which the crowd surely would nail me if I got it wrong. :-)

But the manual explains the difference between Destroy and Destroy All (p. 118): Destroy, the designated target unit(s) have to be "knocked out" of the fight for full points, damaged units get partial points;

Destroy All, the unit(s) must be completely eliminated to receive points.

[Gen Von Television]

OK I also got that, but I'm confused about on how many points are actually given for "the designated target unit(s) have to be "knocked out" of the fight for full points" if I assign i.e. a whole company as an Objective Units? Suppose the Red player can destroy 50 % of the Blue U1, will he get 500 points of the total 1000?

[mjkerner]

OK I also got that, but I'm confused about on how many points are actually given for "the designated target unit(s) have to be "knocked out" of the fight for full points" if I assign i.e. a whole company as an Objective Units? Suppose the Red player can destroy 50 % of the Blue U1, will he get 500 points of the total 1000?

Got me--I gave you what I know already!

[JonS]

As a general rule, I set each side a total pool of 1000 points, then allocate points to various objectives from within that pool. That way it's easy to keep a track in your mind how objectives compare to each other in terms of a percentage of the points pool, and it's easier to communicate t

For your particular side you could do something like:

Attacker(infiltrator):

Terrain objs, 4, each worth 50 points. 200 points total (probably 'touch')

Terrain obj @ the exit point, 100 points (definitely 'touch')

Exit terrain obj (these are worth 0 points)

Enemy unit objectives, 600points (can be split up in various ways)('destroy', not 'destroy all')

Bonus parameter: 100 points (this balances the need to move and exit)

Defender:

Various terrain objs, 300 points total (all 'hold')

Enemy unit objs, 700 points (can be split up in various ways, must cover all forces whose mission it is to exit)('destroy', not 'destroy all')

Now, assume that the defender holds all his objectives, and destroys or blocks 25% of the exfiltrating force (that is, 75% escape). He will get 300 + (700 . 0.25) = 475 points.

The attacker will get the 100 bonus, always. Assume he also exits some of his force, so he gets to the Exit touch obj, that's another 100. Plus 2 of the other 'touch'es, that's another 100, and destroys 20% of the defending force for a final 120 = 420 in total

That would be a draw or maybe a slight defensive victory (I forget what the exact ratios are).

Now adjust the points allocated to the various objs up and down according to whether you think exiting 75% of the attacking force should be a victory or not.

You could ditch the parameter bonus, and allocate that 100points to the touch obj that is at the exit (although that wouldn't change the final points in this case, it does make getting off the map a bit more urgent). You could reduce the points allocated to the defender's terrain objs to 100 in total, and increase the enemy force obj to 900. That way the defender would get 100 + 900 . 0.25 = 325 vs the attacker's 420, or an attacking victory.

Then play with different %s of casualties and forces exited to get the right overall result.

[Gen Von Television]

Jon, thanks so much for your detailed example.

I will surely dig into it and apply the various options you're suggesting...

Ah yes, just another question about the Exit Zone that bestows 1000 points in my initial setup: as you suggest it would be better to set it to 0 and replace this with a Touch Obj; One thing I still cannot clarify is about those 1000 points. As it is would that mean than if just a single unit exit the infiltrators will get 1000 point? Or just a percentage? I'd like to have a clarification, please.

I will report back.

[JonS]

You can't set any points for an 'Exit' terrain obj. That's why I suggested a co-located 'Touch' obj. It's not really necessary, but it does give the player a positive reason for going there (rather than the negative reason of denying points to the enemy player via exiting his forces). I'm assuming here you're referring to a true 'exit' scenario, where the forces have to move off the map?

A player with a 'Touch' obj receives the points - all the points - for that obj as soon as a single unit moves into the Touch area, regardless of how small the moving unit is, nor how long they remain there.

[Gen Von Television]

Ooops, right you are!

Yes, the Exit is the top tile row of the map... So I was really messing up as there were no other Objective assigned to the Infiltrators, so as it was they were in for a sure defeat!

One further query about the Objectives: can I assign them to specific Units? i.e. I want a specific unit to reach a specific place, but if another unit get there first it won't gather any points...?

[JonS]

Thinking about this some more, perhaps the easiest way to set up the scoring would be as follows:

Defender:

1000 points 'Destroy' unit objective, covering all enemy forces that must exit.

Attacker:

500 point parameter bonus

Exit terrain obj (0 points)

That way, if the attacker gets 50% off then the defender gets 500 points and a draw. If the attacker gets more off, the defender gets less than 500 points and the attacker wins. But if the attacker gets less than half his force off, the defender will get more than 500 points and he'll win.

(although that assumes that getting half the attacking force off is a reasonable proposition given the balance of forces)

[Gen Von Television]

That is also a neat way... Will test that first (less work)! Nevertheless your first approach has given me a deeper insight on how to set victory points for many other scenarios...

[JonS]

One further query about the Objectives: can I assign them to specific Units? i.e. I want a specific unit to reach a specific place, but if another unit get there first it won't gather any points...?

Terrain objectives? No.

Which is good, because that would be too much like writing a movie script. As designer you should set the parameters for victory. How they're achieved is up to the player.

[Gen Von Television]

First test: Red 1800 Blue 500! Not fair as I already knew what they were all about...

I will now make a test using your first suggestions as possibly they are giving some better motivations to the AI guys pixel truppen.

Maybe I should also set all the Parameters to 0: what do you suggest about them?

[Gen Von Television]

Second Test using your first approach + Parameters Jon: Red = 1300 Blue = 656

I should say thanks to you I'm now on the right track indeed!

Of course knowing all about AI is giving me an unfair advantage, but I suppose it may well be a good fight both against AI or H2H.

Thanks again!

[JonS]

I just had a look at points-ratio calculation, and for a basic 'Exit' scenario you'd probably be better off with

Defender:

1000 points 'Destroy' unit objective, covering all enemy forces that must exit.

Attacker:

225 point parameter bonus

Exit terrain obj (0 points)

That will allow both sides to score the full range from minor to total victory.

But, that'd still make for a very boring victory screen

[Gen Von Television]

Terrain objectives? No.

Which is good, because that would be too much like writing a movie script. As designer you should set the parameters for victory. How they're achieved is up to the player.

Well I asked about that option since I'm now trying to build another Exit scenario like this:

Player has two main groups: the first one is smaller and has to stay in place, while a second bigger one has to pass through the lines of the first one and move fast to Exit.

AI has some units, mainly snipers and HMGs here and there that should harass fire targeting the marching through player's units.

From your observations I should calculate the values for all the players units that would stay and create a bonus with at least their value since they will be calculated as eliminated by AI (still on the map), eventually adding some more points for the Exiting units. Is this the correct approach?

Each and every units is to be considered a percentage factor? Or this factor is calculated with a variable dependent on unit size/value? Is there any way to check these values?

Possibly this subject has been already delt with, but I lost tracks about it...

[Gen Von Television]

Defender:

1000 points 'Destroy' unit objective, covering all enemy forces that must exit.

Attacker:

225 point parameter bonus

Exit terrain obj (0 points)

That will allow both sides to score the full range from minor to total victory.

In this example are you considering the fact that the Attacker to win should have a loss ratio at least < 22.5% without adding or subtracting Parameters: correct?

[JonS]

Player has two main groups: the first one is smaller and has to stay in place, while a second bigger one has to pass through the lines of the first one and move fast to Exit.

Make only the second group a Destroy Unit Obj for the enemy. Leave the first group 'naked'. That way the player can move the first group off if they wish, but there's no benefit in doing so.

[JonS]

In this example are you considering the fact that the Attacker to win should have a loss ratio at least < 22.5% without adding or subtracting Parameters: correct?

No, loss ratios are irrelevant in this example. The /only/ points the attacker gets is the Parameter Bonus of 225.

The defender get's points for destroying the attacker, but until they destroy or prevent from exiting 22.5% of the attacking force (that's a %age of the attacking force, not a ratio) the attacker will win.

225 was picked as the attacker Parameter Bonus because to get a Total Victory the defender has to get 4:1 points. 4 x 225 = 900, meaning up to 100 points worth of attacking forces can get off the map, and the defender will still get a Total Victory.

(Actually, if you destroy 90% of the attacking force like that they'll probably surrender, so you can probably set the Parameter Bonus to 300 and still get the fuill range of results)