Rokko Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I've been comparing the ingame German TOEs with the Zetterling OOBs for most of the German divisions in Normandy and there are some inconsistencies I've found. Now I am not saying that Zetterling is 100% correct in every single case since I don't know, but I'd like to know why the CMBN TOEs are the way they are. 1.) SS armored Panzergrenadier Batallion In the module this units has 5 companies. 4 armored infantry companies and one heavy weapons company. According to Zetterling not a single mechanized battalion in a Waffen-SS division had 5 companies, but always 3 inf and 1 heavy coy. I've also never heard of a German infantry batallion with 5 companies. 2.) WH & SS Panzer Aufklärung Batallion (Recon Bn) They have 4 companies ingame. 2x Armored car coy 1x Armored infantry coy 1x Heavy weapons coy According to Zetterling there was only one Pz Division in Normandy with 4 companies (the 116th), every other had a recon batallion 5, the 4th being another infantry coy. Those are the ones I'd consider incorrect. There a few more issues where a formation is lacking customizability to reflect the many many different variations in German units (for instance you can't make every Pioneer company an armored one to get the Panzer Lehr Pioneer batallion), but that is understandable, since it would be one hell of work adding all the different compositions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 As I recall, the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler had the extra stuff in it. All the other SS units were as you described. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Do you have any source for that? The unit with the extra stuff would have been III./SS-PzGrenReg 2, but I can't anything that states it had 5 companies total. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Do you have any source for that? The unit with the extra stuff would have been III./SS-PzGrenReg 2, but I can't anything that states it had 5 companies total. Sorry, I don't have any source to give you. I think the TO&E information is mostly pulled directly from original documents in the German National Archives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 2.) WH & SS Panzer Aufklärung Batallion (Recon Bn) They have 4 companies ingame. 2x Armored car coy 1x Armored infantry coy 1x Heavy weapons coy According to Zetterling there was only one Pz Division in Normandy with 4 companies (the 116th), every other had a recon batallion 5, the 4th being another infantry coy. Those are the ones I'd consider incorrect. There a few more issues where a formation is lacking customizability to reflect the many many different variations in German units (for instance you can't make every Pioneer company an armored one to get the Panzer Lehr Pioneer batallion), but that is understandable, since it would be one hell of work adding all the different compositions. I currently work on a campaign around the 11th Panzer Division (Southern France) and had similar issues, although I "solved" them. E.g the Pz.A.A. 11 seems to have been structured as follows Stab - all Spähwagen were assigned here with 3x231, 10x222, 3x223 - used 1st company in the Pz.Aufkläungsabteilung as a base.1. Kp - was a motorized infantry company. Used a Pz.Gren.Btl. (mot) as template.2. Kp. - was with le.SPW (250) used 3rd company in the Pz.Aufkläungsabteilung as a base.3. Kp - was with m.SPW (251) used a Pz.Gren.Btl. (gep.) as template.4. Kp - was with Schwimmwagen used a Pz.Gren.Btl. (mot) as template.5. Kp - was heavy company. used 1st company in the Pz.Aufkläungsabteilung as a base. So in the end I am able to "build" this Pz.A.A., but it gets split over 3 batallion templates - 1 Pz.A.A., 1 Pz.Gren. (gep.) and 1 Pz.Gren. (mot.) With a similar approach I am able to build the Feldersatzbatallion 11. Pz.Div. and Pz.Jg.Abt. 61 - other outfits with non-standard TO&E. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 But that means that each unit gets different boni from superior HQs right? Even though they wouldn't be on map. You'd have to at least pay attention that every HQ unit gets the same stats. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 But that means that each unit gets different boni from superior HQs right? Even though they wouldn't be on map. You'd have to at least pay attention that every HQ unit gets the same stats. yes. this is correct. that's one of the shortcomings of CMx2. this is equally a problem when you're working with task forces or Kampfgruppen - you should be able to create your own C2 hierarchy for such temporary organizations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 It would be awesome to have the TOEs fully customizable for mission builders. So one could add any company of any type by will and also have every type of squad selectable under Specialist teams for instance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 It would be awesome to have the TOEs fully customizable for mission builders. So one could add any company of any type by will and also have every type of squad selectable under Specialist teams for instance That would be very cool. I wonder if Santa could do that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 It's probably worth pointing out that none of the eleven panzer divisions in Normandy shared a common OoB/ToE. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 It's probably worth pointing out that none of the eleven panzer divisions in Normandy shared a common OoB/ToE. true - and even worse, after a few days/weeks of fighting. ad hoc units (Kampfgruppen) were the norm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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