Questions for Steve (General PBEM) #5

[Guest Robert Hall]

Steve, an observation on the scenario map. In Martin's Turn 15 AAR is a west to east overview of the whole map with red circles indicating his intended defensive positions. It shows a gently undulating terrain. Unfortunately the river appears to undulate with the countryside, ie it rises in the middle of the map! Is this a distortion effect of the map view or perhaps a problem with the map design?

Robert

[Guest Big Time Software]

I haven't seen the shot, but the river is all at one level. Unfortunately the river "banks" can sometimes GRAPHICALLY be less than perfectly flat depending on the surrounding slopes.

Steve

P.S. KwazyDog, it only gets better and better All I need are a couple of Ozzie's catch pharses to make it complete!

[Vetch]

As of turn 16, Fionn is advancing two halftracks forward down the south road towards one of Martin's bazooka teams. The first halftrack is ambush bait and is short a gunner and has no infantry mounted on-board. The second has both a gunner and mounted infantry.

Here's my question:

Is there any way to tell your ambushing units to let low-threat, low value targets pass by in favor of jucier targets?

I know Martin can order his bazooka team to hide (but then they do nothing for 60 seconds unless someone stubs their toes on them, right?), or maybe he can specifically target the second halftrack, but exactly how much control/options over this situation does he have?

Actually, I was thinking that the ability to tell an ambushing unit to specifically ignore one enemy unit--in this case the first half-track--might be nice. This would allow more flexibility in certain cases. For instance, if there were two half-tracks with mounted infantry following the first instead of just one, you might not want to target one of them because the one you targeted might hold back out of range while the other one advanced past you and then you would have blown your chance to get a juicy target.

Apologies if you have already answered this somewhere else.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi Vetch,

Actually, we do it the other way around. Martin's bazooka can specify the desired target rather than ignore a less desirable one. Much easier and far more predicatable

The way it works is that a Hiding unit will attack when it thinks it has a really good chance of getting a kill, which is further out than toe stubbing range If you wish the unit to only pop up for something specific within that range, then target something.

So, Martin could do exactly what you suggest. HOWEVER, it could be better to grease the first HT because then the second HT would have to go off road to avoid the first. This will slow it and perhaps even bog it down. In other words, nice second target

Steve

[Ben Galanti]

I had a question about the gunnerless halftracks Fionn is using as bait. Does their TacAI take into account the fact that they are defenseless? Sending them off to the slaughter just seems a little gamey to me... It seems like Fionn is trying to apply Steel Panthers tactics I was just curious how well this will work, becuase again it just kinda feels wrong from a realism standpoint...

[Doug Beman]

Is Martin really getting air support at some time? I'd suuuuuurree like to see this work.

DjB

[Larry Marks]

Steve, can a split squad be reformed at any time? Thanks.

Larry

[Guest Big Time Software]

There is NO way we can prevent a player from doing something like this with ANY unit. This would involve knowing his intentions, which of course the game can't possible know (hehe... and this one isn't a VRAM or CPU problem ). The ONLY reason why we know what Fionn is doing is because he has told us. Otherwise, looks perfectly the same as any other move down any other road. Now, if the HT starts getting shot at with something that can cause it harm, well, it will have a greater chance of buggering out because it is defenseless. But UNITL it comes under such fire, Fionn can do anything he wants with it.

Doug, Fionn does not share your hopes one bit. I can assure you of that

Steve

[Doug Beman]

Is there a simpleton's synopsis for how global morale is figured? Also, does this figure change instantly upon the death/surrender of units? Or, alternatively, is there some lag between a platoon getting whacked and another platoon saying "oh crap?"

DjB

[Dar]

Steve:

I was curious about how Martin's Sherman, which is engaging the HT racing along the road to the south of it, will behave when the HT dips into low spots where it can't be tracked, as Martin described the road (turn 16).

Will the turret continue to attempt to track, stay facing the area where the target was last seen, or return to a hull-aligned position? I was wondering how the TacAI will behave in this situation.

Not that I expect to be disappointed with any answer. Any of the three reactions would make sense: you could hope for the target to maintain speed and direction and show up again; you could stay facing that direction where you last engaged because you're not sure where it will pop up again; or you could return to the hull-aligned position because you expect threats from that direction and that's why you have your thickest armor facing pointed that way!

But I'm wondering if there is a set behavior.

Thanks,

Dar Steckelberg

[This message has been edited by Dar (edited 09-04-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Doug, I don't know the specifics of how it was actually coded. But the concept was for Global Morale to be based on an overall sense of "how are we doing?" for the entire force. In design it was based on % friendly forces remaining, enemy casualties, friendly morale average, % vicotry. Basically, the lower any of these the worse the Global Morale will be (potentially).

The elements are designed to be able to balance each other out to some extent, so that a hard fight doesn't necessarily mean the Global Morale will be in the crapper. Say that friendly casualties are high, but morale and vicotry points are high as well. Chances are that your GM level will be pretty good, as the surviving men are confident in victory.

The worse the Global Morale, the lower the threshold for things like Panicking. Also can help cause the game to end early.

Dar, the Sherman will likely keep tracking the HT for some time, even behind a dip, hoping that it will pop back out again. However, it will not wait forever because it isn't smart enough to know that the dip is limited or so large the unit will never come back into LOF. Picture a unit going behind a house vs. a unit going behind a 500m long hill. In the first case the unit is likely to pop out, the second no way. So the AI simply has a little internal clock to decide when it should give up.

BTW, the tank will only rotate its hull when it feels there is a threat of being pierced. So the Sherman won't rotate to kill an HT, but will to face a StuG. In Martin's case the turret was simply tracking the HTs.

Steve

[Ben Galanti]

Geez, Charles hasn't put the mind reading code in yet? I'm canceling my preorder

Seriously though, I know you can't specifically code against something like that (and I'm sure if you tried, it would cause a lot more headaches then it was worth...) Just as long as the HT is pretty skittish when it see's troops, that would be good enough for me. I mean, I know if I was driving a HT in a hot battlefield with no gunner and no infantry support, I'd split at the sight of a guy with a sharp stick I'm guessing that the TacAI will come to pretty much the same conclusion, which would make it much better then most other games where the HT would just die happily...

[Guest Big Time Software]

A Green HT driver might do this, but probably not a Regular or better. These guys know that small arms (HMG excepted) is no threat to them. So a sharp stick, nah... no problem. But a Bazooka? Well... why worry about such things? Its not like that Martin has one behind the house

Steve

[Rhet]

Ben,

There was a good discussion on this subject in a previous post called "points system". Specifically "Truck Recon" was covered towards the end of the thread.

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Rhet

[Guest Big Time Software]

FYI, Steve is out of town until late Monday.

Charles

[Ben Galanti]

Steve,

I was wondering why Martin's troops haven't ID'd the Puma yet. This picture www.battlefront.com/aar/Turn18a/Turn18surrender.jpg still shows it as an unknown halftrack. He's had a ton of troops in get a good look at. Is it just bad luck? Or has it been ID'd, and then slipped back to a lower level of spotting (does that even happen?)

Along the same lines, what about the PzIV's? A lot of grunts seemed to be in a position to ID it, but it took the new Shermans (a click out) in Turn 18 to do it? Just seemed a little odd to me...

[aikidorat]

Ben,

a few of the many books I've read included passages regarding the identification of enemy units by GI's/infantry. They pretty much all said the same thing - most of the time they didnt spend the time to ID the units until after the battle (if then), and, in the case of GI's, *any* tank was commonly called a Tiger. Resulted in Tiger's being everywhere, even if it was a PZIV, STuG, or Jagdpanther, etc. Makes for some fun interpreting after action reports that include something like 100 Tigers in the area.

The rationale given for this was that the average infantry either had too much to do to memorize enemy vehicles, or was too busy trying to stay alive, etc, to accurately ID what was coming, 'cept that it was a tank or truck, etc.

So, the lack of proper identification seems pretty ok to me, IMHO. I would expect a tank crew to be able to ID the enemy, but not the average infantryman. Maybe sharpshooters/FO's....

dave

[Guest Big Time Software]

We agree with Dave on this. IDing stuff on the battlefield, while ducking, running, shooting, and basically swearing a lot is not an easy thing to do. It isn't like units even really care too much. The basic info needed is something of roughly x type shooting from y position with likely z intentions. So most units will appear as the best guess for the particular category (i.e. PzIV/Sherman for medium tank, Squad for a gaggle of infantry, Gun for anything remotely like it, etc). To know if it is a PzIVJ or PzIVH is not really of a concern to the US forces.

Lots of factors go into spotting. Time, distance, quality and condition of the spotting unit, visibility (clear vs. rainy), etc. all factor in. Martin happened to ID the Panther correctly pretty much right away (Turn 1 or 2), but the other stuff came into play when he had less units in the area, and even fewer in good shape.

But by Turn 20 Martin has ID'd the Puma and both PzIVs.

Steve

[Ben Galanti]

Steve,

A couple of questions. First, I was wondering what the load out on Martin's air support was. Secondly, did Fionn know he brewed up a Sherman in turn 19? He doesn't mention it in his report, but I figured it'd be kinda hard to miss...

[tss]

I also second (or should I say "third" or "fourth") the notion that soldiers were generally not too concerned about the correct identification of enemy tanks. For infantry there was only two really important attributes for vehicles:

1) Is it on our side?

2) Can it hurt me?

For example (once again from Finnish army). During Winter War at Karelian front Finnish infantry soldiers generally classified enemy tanks into four categories: "small" (probably T-37s), "medium" (T-26, BT-5,7), "large" (T-28), and "very large" (T-100, SMK, and probably KV-I). The higher command would then try to guess what tanks the reports talked about.

Even tank crews couldn't be trusted to give accurate information about enemy tanks. During Summer '44 Finnish tankers categorized Soviet AFVs as: "light" (T-60 and like), "Sotka" (nickname for any model of T-34), "Klimi" (KV, JS, and sometimes even Cromwell tanks), and "ugly" (an assault gun, mostly applied to ISU-122/152).

-Tommi

[Pixman]

Game Over! If it wasn't over before, it is now. Panther gone, Mark IV gone and the StuGIII about to go. Fionn can hang it up. Unless his artillery is of earthquake proportions, he will get slaughtered just trying to cross the river. Once it is house to house with Martin's superior forces, it will be a total rout.

Fionn has properly assessed that his final fate rests with the effectiveness of his arty. If he learns that Martin has survived it in pretty good order, he may decide to pack it in (turn 25 he estimated).

Which leads me to a question: Will the game reward Fionn for disengaging from a futile battle? More generally, what levels of victory, if any, does CM award?

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ben, I think 2x500lb bombs + MGs. Yes, Fionn knows because he had an idea that there was tank there, he fired, then a big plume of smoke appeared Must have just missed it in the AAR.

Tss... "ugly"... that is funny Keep those stories from Finnland coming. I have a big soft spot for that theater of ops.

Pixman, well, Fionn thought he should hang it up too, but he really hasn't lost yet. Martin's forces aren't week, but they also aren't as strong as might think. He has two Shermans left, one of which is "cornered" on the side of the map.

If Fionn handles his infantry better than he has so far, he will do some damage to Martin. There is also a decent chance of him taking part of the town back. Fionn still has about 4 platoons of infantry, and that is not a small force. Especially because 1/2 of them are Veterans. Martin has about 5 platoons, all Regular and lacking most of their support MGs. If Fionn hits Martin hard in a concentrated effort... It ain't over yet

The game will end automatically when the attacker is CLEARLY defeated. Fionn is borderline right now. Lots of losses, but still a chance of winning. However, there is no code in to end the game early right now, so it is a fight to the finish or until one decides he is done. I am acting like an Umpire in this regard. When I think the game is done I will blow my whistle

Steve

[Pixman]

I don't know Steve, I still don't see it. Although I thought Fionn had fewer troops and Martin had more, the numbers still do not look good. Applying the old rule of thumb of needing a 2 to 1 advantage to reach a draw and a 3 to 1 advantage to ensure victory on the offensive, I fear a lot of German blood in the snow.

I'll grant that the Panzergrenadiers are tough cookies, but assaulting a larger force of regulars in buildings could be real ugly. The Green Volksgrenadiers have proven worthless to this point and I cannot see that changing. Obviously you have "foresight" about the AFV situation that I do not have. And of course, the German arty is still the wild card as of turn 19.

One question: Is the difference between "Regular" and "Veteran" about the same as the difference between "Regular" and "Green"? As I recall from memory the ratings in CM are, from best to worst -- crack, elite, veteran, regular, green and conscript -- thus my question.

Also, in my previous post, I asked about victory levels and rewards for breaking off from futile engagements. If you get a chance to catch your breath, please share your thoughts.

Thanks as always.

Pixman

P.S. On a sad note, Catfish Hunter died today. A great pitcher and a truly great guy.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.