Tactical Wargamer Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 On going debate among our LAN group. Re. The Canadians landing on Juno beach. IIRC the Canucks were the only beach NOT to have DD support. Is this correct? Is so what and when did tank support show up to help the brave infantry? Thanks guys! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glukx Ouglouk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to Wikipedia, there were DDs at Juno, though not as many as planned : On the Canadian Juno Beach, The Fort Garry Horse and the 1st Hussars were equipped with DDs, but only those of the 1st Hussars could be launched. They were assigned to the 7th Canadian Brigade, at the western end of the beach. Some of the tanks were launched at 4,000 yards (3,658 m) and some at 800 yards (700 m); twenty-one out of twenty-nine tanks reached the beach. The 8th Canadian Brigade, at the eastern end of the beach, was forced to land without DD tanks because of rougher seas. They suffered heavy initial casualties, but were still able to make good progress. Of course, Wikipedia isn't exactly an authoritative source, and i guess that those who are more knowledgeable will chime in with some good sources to check... edit : The First Hussars' website mentions DD tanks used on D-Day on its history page. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Away from my books, but that matches my recollection. Best I can remember, all beaches were *planned* to have DD support, but on some beaches/sectors (Omaha, West side of Juno), few or no DDs actually made it ashore. Or in some cases (eg Utah), the DDs were so late and/or landed so out of position that they played little to no role in the initial combat to secure the beachhead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Great that was good. That is the source I was using just wasn't too sure on the 8th brigade. So in essence they were not in the first wave. I wonder though when any tank support showed up or at all. Later that morning possibly? Doing a scenario on the 8th and it is for the first hour. Their is some discussion that tanks (DDs?) where on the beach in the first hour......just can't find any sources for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_tank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagskier Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 THere was DD tanks, I'm quite sure. Don't know if they were there on all the beaches tho. But as far as I know, It would have been a disaster if canadians didn't had any DDs. As it's the tank support that let them go through the Atlantikwall. As the defense were not really harmed by the Barrage. It's funny that in the move the DD is a firefly, I don't think that ever happened. http://stormingjuno.com/ a nice ''historical'' movie'' I wouldn't call it a good source but still http://members.shaw.ca/junobeach/juno-4-7.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaza_Olmedo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to John Keegan's Six armies in Normandy the first infantry wave of the Canadian 8th didn't have DD support, since due to rough sea the tanks landed in dry terrain. Unfortunately, he doesn't specifies after how many time the tanks actually got there... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagskier Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 According to John Keegan's Six armies in Normandy the first infantry wave of the Canadian 8th didn't have DD support, since due to rough sea the tanks landed in dry terrain. Unfortunately, he doesn't specifies after how many time the tanks actually got there... That Is right tho, they were quite late! From that wierd website up there: C' Squadron, Fort Garry Horse landed at 'Nan Red' beach near St. Aubin in support of the North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment. At 8:05 the LCT's came inshore and the order was given to launch. On their way into shore 4 tanks were knocked out in the water. One LCT was hit with the tanks still onboard and one sank in deep water. When the tanks landed they gave supporting fire in all directions from their beach positions, waiting for the AVRE's to clear an exit through a minefield. The squadron had lost 4 tanks and were down to 16 tanks remaining. There was a great deal of confusion and still no beach exit for the tanks. The squadron leader, Major William Bray made the decision to push through the minefield himself. He pointed his tank at the minefield and ordered the squadron to follow him. They lost 3 more tanks in the process but the remaining tanks got into St Aubin and were able to support the infantry there. Major Bray won the Distinguished Service Order for his determination to get the Canadians ashore that day. By late morning the North Shores had cleared all of St.Aubin except a strong-point. In the afternoon two Sherman tanks blew up two 75mm and two anti-aircraft guns and destroyed the strong-point B' Squadron, Fort Garry Horse, commanded by Major J.A. Meindl landed at 'Nan White' beach near Bernières in support of the Queen's Own Rifles. The high waves forced the tanks to be brought in closer to shore by the LCT's, thus delaying the landing. The 'B' Squadron Shermans touched down on the sand and maneuvered their way through the belt of booby-trapped stakes and obstacles just off the beach. The DD's deflated their canvas screens and brought their 75mm guns and machine guns into action. They fired their 75mm guns steadily from their beach positions at the German pillboxes and strong-points. One company of the QOR suffered severely from enemy fire until 'B' Squadron arrived and provided supporting fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Is this correct? No. Is so what and when did tank support show up to help the brave infantry? Same as any other British beach - a complete armoured brigade (including scads of DDs) plus a shedload of armoured engineers in Churchills, and another shedload of SP antitank guns. And several regiments (four or five) of SP artillery. Richard Anderson's book "Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall" has an excellent recaptulation of the vehicles that landed on each beach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaf Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 My recollection is that the very first assault wave on Juno had no armour on landing because the DDs couldn't swim ashore through the rough seas. Of course piles of armour was landed shortly after, but in those first critical minutes the assault troops were fighting on their own against largely intact German weapon positions... That is what people are referring to when they state that there was no tank support at Juno, I believe. The Queen's Own Rifles at Nan beach in particular took a lot of casualties as a result of having to fight unsupported, as I recall... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 My recollection is that the very first assault wave on Juno had no armour on landing because the DDs couldn't swim ashore through the rough seas. Of course piles of armour was landed shortly after, but in those first critical minutes the assault troops were fighting on their own against largely intact German weapon positions... That is what people are referring to when they state that there was no tank support at Juno, I believe. The Queen's Own Rifles at Nan beach in particular took a lot of casualties as a result of having to fight unsupported, as I recall... Ok Right O. I just have to see if in a scenario for say the QOR's (which is the oldest regiment in North America by the way) in a 30-60 minutes scenario when the tanks realistically should show on the beaches? If at all in that time period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaf Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Took a look at Keegan's "Six Armies in Normandy..." In some places on Juno the tanks were on time, in other places they were late. Overall it sounds like the tanks were pretty on-time considering the conditions, and played a major role in shooting the infantry ashore. It seems to me that the impression that the tanks on Juno were late arises from a couple of incidents that involved small numbers of troops and relatively short delays, but were very nasty for the men involved. B company of the QORs had a bad time - they landed in the wrong place with no armour right in front of a gun emplacement with two 50mm guns and seven MGs, and took 65 casualties before a 3-man team managed to get grenades through the gun slits... The whole action took only 15 minutes. Keegan does not mention when the tanks arrived. Keegan also states that a company of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles took heavy casualties in the surf and during an unsupported charge up the beach into heavy fire - in that case the tanks were a mere six minutes late. Meanwhile, when the assault company of the Regina Rifle Regiment got ashore they found that their supporting armour had already landed. So it sounds like in scenario terms no armour should be more than 10-15 minutes late, if that. I think the lesson here is that if you were an infantryman in the first assault wave, it was REALLY important that the tanks arrive exactly on time. 6 minutes could mean the difference between very heavy casualties or minimal ones... Of course, given the weight of men and armour poised to land behind the first wave, these incidents would have had little bearing on the overall battle - the initial assault wave was a small fraction of the troops on hand. But it mattered a lot to the units concerned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Richard Anderson's book "Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall" has an excellent recaptulation of the vehicles that landed on each beach. This is a source you should be referencing as it has very detailed descriptions of what arrived when. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Copp's "Fields of Fire" states that DD tanks were supposed to accompany the first wave. In some cases, like on Nan beach, the 1st wave landed without support because the tanks had been launched too far offshore. However, it appears DD tanks landed with or shortly after the infantry in most cases. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 This is a source you should be referencing as it has very detailed descriptions of what arrived when. Michael Just got the book thanks!!! Looks amazing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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