QB Force mixes

[Sgt Schultz]

While I am fairly certain there is a thread like this somewhere in necro-land, may as well start a new one.

After struggling to learn to live on a budget, I believe am starting to get the hang of it. Let's compare notes and see how people approach their QB buys.

Do you have "base" forces that you tweak from battle to battle?

Do you re-think for each battle?

Do you have favorite units?

What is your favorite size/type of battle to buy for?

That sort of thing.

I will post my little ramble after this lead-in, since it involves just one type of buy.

We have until Commonwealth to tweak our buys.

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[Sgt Schultz]

Since playing QBs is still a somewhat new experience for me(well, since cmbb), getting the purchase right is still a challenge. Finding the balance for a situation seems to be more of an art form, helped along by lady luck, than a science. This little ramble is my way of starting a discussion on purchasing habits... not an attempt to represent this purchase as some sort of winner. It is as balanced an ATTACKING formation as could be arranged with my newby skills. Of course I am working on other buys for defense.

The situation....

Attacker, Rarity off, mix, German. Dry ground, light wind(yay), no bocage. It is a larger map with a village in the center/rear, with decent scattered tree concealment.

I see this purchase mix to be my basic one for almost any non-bocage German attack.

3,175 points available. I am always somewhat tempted to buy a complete Battalion of Reg/High/0 Infantry Grenadiers for 2,707 points. The complete lack of mobile, long-range AT assets brings me down to Earth every time.

I start with the Grenadiers though. Regular/High/0 as a formation standard. It seems that the high motivation helps a bit more when it counts... at the end of the battle.

Then the pruning starts. I have found that even after separating what I "want" from what I "need"(hard lesson), adjustments are always needed to make room.

I end up with this ...

1st Company -

x3 plt inf(3rd plt has scout team instead of 3rd squad)

4th plt has the following-

x2 HMG(instead of 4)

x2 81mm(on-map)

x1 251/1 HT(single vehicle addition)

2nd Company -

same as 1st Company in all respects

3rd Company - reserves

Co HQ

no Co XO

x1 plt inf

Direct Btn attachments -

x1 81mm off-map (vet)

x1 120mm off-map (vet)

x1 FO (vet)

x4 TRP

x1 JPzIV (vet/hi/+1)

x1 PzIVH (vet/hi/+1)

x2 Stummel 75mm HT (vet/hi/+1)

It took some juggling here and there with single unit Motivation to squeeze it all in, but I did it.

The method to the madness -

All vehicles are Vet/High/+1. It's just my personal thing. They are always keystone units and they better stand and deliver.

All FOs and off-map assets are Vet. I want it where and when I want it. They will proceed in an orderly, proficient and military manner. Muldoons are not tolerated in my formations.

By stripping the organic heavy company and its mortars, along with most of 3rd Company, I saved a bit on HQs and got rid of excess infantry. Gave up the 2nd 120mm battery too, but oh well.

I hated stripping half the organic HMG42 squads, but the points just weren't there. It's not like MG42s are scarce in any German formation.

The Scout Teams in the two 3rd plts add Pop Smoke and a brace of MP40s(set to puree), while shaving a few points from the toon total.

The 251/1 Hannomags turned into an elegant solution to two problems. Not only do they carry the ammo that can tide my boys over after a firefight, they can carry all on-map mortars and ammo bearers. No more "Tired" mortars scrambling to catch up and set up before they are seen. No more infantry running out of ammo at turn 38, since will I re-up at turn 20. Vet costs same as Regular too... 64 points. One for each Company and they will be kept safe.

If I could have made room for 5 TRPs I would have. The outer horseshoe of 4 could have a center. It is amazing what can be done with properly placed series of TRPs on the attack. 200+/- meter separation in an arc makes for a lot of nice options. Who needs LOS when you have a Vet FO and Vet mortars with TRPs?

The JpzIV is my must-have unit. It can go toe-to-toe with 76mm Shermans and still knock down a house or two. The six(or is it 7) Pop Smokes the JPz carries is perfect for my style. Fragile from the side and non-turreted, but scary from the front. All that smoke can help keep supporting infantry/soft vehicles alive.

PzIVH because I couldn't afford a second Jagd. A capable beastie, but more fragile than I would like in the presence of possible 76mm Shermans.

Stummel because... 103 points for mobile, direct-fire, 75mm HE/HEAT/Smoke. Beat that. They should be the last units to present themselves, but can be the last units that the enemy sees. Wonderful at suppressing structures. They make a dandy cheapo tank replacement on Damp or Wet ground as well. Why bog 1 tank when you can bring 3 Stummels? They can crawl through the muck fairly well.

--

This yields two separate combined-arms columns, with a small reserve/distraction force comprised of XOs and 3rd Company's plt. Each column gets a Stummel, 251/1 and one Armor unit. The FO stays with the Btn HQ and 3rd Co near center or best terrain feature. Since I usually attack on two fronts, this buy seems to be about optimal for me. Enough troops to soak up a few losses, with an even amount of varied support assets.

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Units I used to buy... Different situations will of course change things, but these are things I have trained myself out of for the most part when attacking as Germans. I feel that the points that are now free give me more balance.

Sniper - Great for defense. On attack, not so much. I have better use for the points than to have another set of binocs.

Any armor not a JagdPzIV - The Kitties are great and can win a battle, no question. The spoiled brats bog in a flash and cost a mint though. 76mm Shermans can puncture anything else except maybe the odd lucky StuG. 57mm will kill PzIV reliably at shorter ranges. Being vulnerable to the front ... against the Amis??? I won't have it. In my little world I have spent three years standing up to Russian 76mm and KV-1s.

Shrek Team - Any defender that allows his armor within 200m of any attacking infantry unit will most likely be vulnerable in other ways. These things are a defending player's dream, but seem to be too fragile for attacks unless it is a heavy bocage map.

Pioneers - If bocage yes, if not, no. I find myself coddling them to preserve their charges.

More Scout Teams - The temptation to construct a CM1 SMG platoon is alway there. They have that Pop Smoke and three MP40s. Stealthy and just scary inside 80 meters. However, they are almost twice as expensive on a per-man average than Grenadiers, and fragile.

More Vets - Quantity has a certain quality all its own. I used to want everything Vet. Then I realised that Veteran troops seem to die at the same rate as Regular troops under mortar and artillery fire. High Motivation may just cower a bit longer before getting up and running rampant through the barrage. Veteran helps that unit, Leadership helps the whole team/etc. I will +1 a unit before making it Vet any time. When it is free, like in the case of the 251/1, well then of course.

Specialty Half-tracks - Ma Deuce and the invisible 57mm have taught me the hard lesson enough that it has sunk in. They are expensive deathtraps. 251/1 for ammo or Stummel only, and they better stay well back. Small-caliber cannon cannot compete with the 12.7's high ROF.

[Sakai007]

Since I play as the Amis more often then not (total opposite of my CMx1 preference) I will add my $0.02 to balance things. BTW - I had a Schultz in my basic training platoon, makes me remember good times, any ways....

I buy my basic Infantry Bat, and take on Co off the top. I also tend to shed the on map 81mms and the MG teams, as I would rather just buy some off map assets and not clutter things. I keep my 60mms as they are the perfect suppression tool, bar none. I add a scout team to every platoon for their demo charges and Tommy guns, great at close range, and you never know when you will need demo. I will also buy as many 75mm Shermans as I can, and one Priest. Also, all the infantry squads will carry zooks that can. Finally, I add an FO to the Batt command post, and sometimes an extra zook team.

Batt HQ

FO

Sherman 75s

1 Priest

81mm off map

A Co

3x Rifle Platoons each w/scout team

Weapon Plt w/60mm mortars

B Co

same as above

I use 75mm Shermans since they are just as good in close tank fighting as any german tank, reliable, and fast. The 76s can fight head on, but whats the point when return fire kills them just as easily. They are also excellent infantry support platforms, and with the Priests 105, any enemy infantry will be in trouble. Those 60 mortars are a force to be reckoned with as well, so my soft target kill capacity is unmatched. While I may suffer in long range tank fights, I try to avoid them like the plague. The advantage for the Amis is the close range fight, so that's how I want to fight my force. Smoke is great for allowing me to close the gap if the terrain in not conductive to such activities.

[Sublime]

Ill post in more detail later but shultz Im shocked at how many units you had!

I basically had 2 platoons out of three, 2 at guns, 2 60 mm, 2 81mm, 1 105mm sherman, 1 stuart, and a few other things. vs three companies etc?? jesus!

[A Canadian Cat]

Interesting. I have learned to go with a force that has more weight towards armor. In my early battles I found that once I lost the armor battle the infantry just could not stand up to the onslaught of infantry supported by armor.

So for a couple of recent small QBs my formation looked like this:

I started with a panzer battalion and stripped it down to just the Aufklarung platoon and one platoon of tanks.

Then I removed the half tracks from the platoon added a couple of sniper teams (elite and high motivation since I use them for flank screening and they are always out of command and working on their own). I also tweak the tank platoon to a price point that I can afford - usually four AFVs instead of five and replacing a couple of tanks with Stug IIIs a) because the price is right and nothing beats a well placed Stug for keeping the enemy away. Plus I added in two 81mm mortars because there has to be some artillery:-)

That way I do have an infantry screen - you cannot live with out one and once I have found and destroyed the enemy armor I have confidence that I will still have operational AFVs left to support my infantry.

In a recent huge battle I purchased a company plus a platoon of US infantry two platoons of M10s and a company of Shermans (slightly thinned out to meet the points) plus a platoon of 105 assault Shermans along with two batteries of 105s plus an FO team. A force heavily balanced towards armor. I was able to absorb the loss of seven or eight Shermans before achieving armor superiority killing three Stug IIIs, two JpIVs and a Tiger.

[Javaslinger]

This is a fascinating conversation! I have sadly little to add as I've only played on tiny or small... Can't buy much.

But I have noticed that I seem to overwhelm the defenders by sheer numbers....

[LJFHutch]

I generally try to have at 3 core formations on the battlefield, these I split into three different areas of the battlefield to form a solid front line.

Usually this is 3 infantry platoons. Next, I assess what I'm likely to encounter and throw in special units to counter that threat such as AT guns, tanks, TDs, extra AT infantry, MGs etc.

A setup I've found works particularly well (this is for SMALL battles, can be scaled though) is:

HQ and support

* 1/2 Infantry platoon

* 2-3 on-map mortars

* 2 HMG teams

* ?? Tank destroyer/AT gun/s

Group A

* Infantry platoon

* ?? Medium/light tank

* ?? Extra MGs, AT inf

Group B

* Infantry platoon

* Medium/light tank

* ?? Extra MGs, AT inf

Group C

* Infantry platoon

* ?? Medium/light tank

* ?? Extra MGs, AT inf

?? = only if you have enough points left after buying core units.

[Sublime]

To break down my usual QB force mixes -

Off map arty -

Germans I love 120mm mortars. However you need a good fo and/or trps. the 150mm is good as well.

The US 155mm is good. Ive had good luck with 105mm as well.

On map -

Ive been slaughtered by a well placed German 150mm inf gun. however I dont like using em. 81mm mortars are nice though. Im a big fan of mortar DF fire. (possibly an understatement I love the 50mm Paks, and 75mms as well. Obviously I love 88mms, but theyre too pricey - not worth it. the 50mm works pretty well with everything the Allies got to be honest. High velocity.

With the Allies, I like a couple of 57mms too, but Ive had pretty mixed results since I started using them. They're decent. I love the 60mm and 81mm mortars. I can work wonders with the 60mms because theyre so portable.

With armor I usually get Pz IV's as the German, theyre so common, effective, and historically accurate. A panther now and then also, they're very effective and not uber rare. I feel sorta guilty when I get them, theyre so difficult to kill it almost feels unfair.

As the Allies, Im all about the 105mm cannon. I love Priests. and Im also in love with the Sherman assault gun.

Someone once mentioned using M20 scout cars because their radio, 50 cal, especially with the armored infantry because of the tiny (2 man) HQ teams. Ive tried this and it does work pretty well. I'd recommend at least one for one of your platoons. Nice flexibility, and I always try to have one .50 cal somewhere in some form besides on my armor. They'll singlehandedly break infantry attacks if they're not getting shelled and can be trouble to halftracks, marders, even Pz IV's and Panther sides and rears!

With infantry I usually eschew the individual AT teams on both sides. Instead I opt for my infantry squads to be equipped with schrecks or zooks.

I used snipers for awhile, but I think I may stop using em, dont feel their worth it.

Scout teams are essential for scouting and defensive ambushes. They got binocs and nice firepower.

I prefer the 1919A4 for Allies everytime over either the BAR or 1917 HMG. Though recently I noticed a M1917 letting 10-12 round bursts go (at close range only tho) and I was impressed. (usually you see mechanical 4-6 round bursts)

Thats why I love the Airborne squads, I think the LMG alone makes a huge difference.

Otherwise as Allies, vanilla infantry battalion has the best squads and hq units i think. Cavalry and armor are ok, but have small HQs. The engineers have these all rifle squads that get kicked around pretty bad.

i was doing some experimenting with land mines after seeing their brilliant use against me in a game of Le Grand Hameau PBEM and Ive got to admit its great fun and gratifying as hell even though you dont get a lot of casualties out of it. more useful to deny good overwatch positions.

As far as the Germans, the fusilier units have the best firepower mix IMO, tho I love the Panzergrenadiers. Always have for some reason. Even gotta think the name is cool

[Sublime]

bump

come on i want some force mix tactics discussion

[LJFHutch]

Mine is usually:

?...?...?...?...?...?..

________________

...[1]....[2]....[3]..

......[support].......

When I find a weak point on the enemy flanks I move in a unit to engage and destroy and then envelope the enemy, pinning them down with fire from as many angles as possible, this makes follow-up attacks far easier.