THH149

Played this as H2H and had a lot of fun, and won as the Syrians. The basic situation is the US Blue force and in two parts, one coming from corners of the western side of the map, converging on a small town split by a river crossed by two bridges. The Syrians had a mechanised force with 8 x BMP-2s, plus several RPG/MG teams and a AT-4a team on the hill overlooking the town. The 'Mission Objectives' for the Syrian are to hold two objectives - one each side of the river - and impose casualties on Blue Force, worth a total of 70 points. For the US, they were to take three objectives - one on the closer side of the river and two on the far side, one quite a way from the town, for 70 points. But we know the 'Mission Objectives' only mention some of the objectives for victory (the usual bull from the CM system), with many more points on offer for destroying Strykers/BMPs and each others specfic units like HQs and infantry, so I felt safe to ignore the Mission objectives pretty much. I set up nearly all Syrians on the far side of the river, leaving only a squad and half on the near side. I used some trucks to block the bridges (but it turned out that they dont, though they block LOS especially when burning), adopting a reverse slope position and Hide everyone. I had to carefully manage the Target orders to make sure no one gave their position away before a point blank shot (though the AT4 shot early and destroyed the 105 on one the strykers). Later I realised the AT5s on the BMPs couldve been put to better effect, as the US maneuvered onto the village (though that would've meant certain destruction for them if in LOS, but something to consider next time) The Syrians had two art modules - one 81mm MTR and one 107mm rocket barrage. The rocket barrage was interesting as it either fired in the first turn or 21 minutes after the request - I time both to smash the village on the US side just as he was entering the area (lucky!). In the buildup, the Javelin team destroyed 3 BMPs but I hid the rest, and took close range RPG shots against strykers when I could that seemed half the time to hit but not knock them out, otherwise holding fire. I was able to destroy three more as they crossed the bridge, as they brushed aside the burning trucks. By this stage, the Us was I think 5 strykers down and the most of the rest were damaged, but he did have some infantry cross the bridges pusing into the second part of the village, but facing 5 BMPs and the bulk of the Syrian veterans. At that point, at the 25 minute mark, the US surrendered as he felt he didn't have sufficient vehicle support to hold what he had. I wished he'd had ceasefired as that would have given a more accurate calculation of the game situation. The US scored some 160-170 points and the Syrians scored 460-70 (IIRC), for a Major Victory (though impacted by the surrender decision). A couple of things we noticed after the game: a Syrian squad is setup outside the setup zone and cant be moved into one, the US has artie but only a handful of shells, we wondered if the US can cross the river rather than go over the bridges (something to check) and the US player was very agressive with the game called at the 25 minute mark (of the 50 minutes allowed) so that the result could've been very different if he was more cautious (possibly using Javelins to destroy Syrian strong points for 20 minutes), the Syrians can't set up to defend one of the US objectives (the Madrassa). The VP count was the usual unknown (why are they hidden? doesnt senior command tell the mission leader what the f*** they need to do to be victorious?) I must say I don't like hidden VP when playing H2H. How have others found this battle? THH

Exactly! Sometimes, its like that....

Also, my experience in NATO Teamwork Required is that BMPs can unbutton while getting into hull down, shoot their ATGM and then withdraw and close the hatch. Those dudes become really switched on!

Played this as H2H and had a lot of fun, played well enough to lose only one Stryker (not burning, others damaged), touch all the objectives and lose only 3 killed and 6 wounded, and took apart the whole Syrian Force. Compared to the Mission Objectives listed in the scenario - touch the objectives and spotted/destroyed the enemy (though didn't spot the minefields) - I thought I did really well. Per the Briefing screen there were 550 VPs on offer, and for the Syrians 750 VP on offer The briefing said about three times: "dont engage, just maintain your force and withdraw if need be"! Ok so that what the game wants me to do: preserve my force. But, Syrians won a tactical victory, but why.... per the end summary screen, the Blue force reached just under 500 VPs and the Syrian over 1000 VP, what/how? Syrian's got more than the VPs on offer? Of course I had to dig deeper into the scenario design, and all was not as it seemed when I put the scenario into the editor, where I found a lot of other VP allocations ... Red Force: Enemy Casualties >10% = 500 pts, enemy condition >30% = 100 pts, enemy ammo > 30% = 100 pts, Friendly casualties < 50% = 150pts, Friendly condition < 50% = 100 pts, Friendly ammo < 50% = 100 pts, SAA Bonus =100 pts, Destroy HQs = 50pts, Destroy Strykers up to 500 pts (up to 50 each), destroy infantry = 200 pts for total possible 1900. Compare these to Mission Objectives displayed at briefing of the last three Destroy objectives for a possible 750 pts. Blue Force: Enemy Casualties > 50% = 50 pts, enemy condition >50% = 50 pts, enemy ammo > 50% = 50 pts, friendly casualties < 10% = 200 pts, Friendly condition < 40% = 100 pts, friendly ammo < 40% = 50 pts, Bonus = 0, Terrain objectives 1 - 6 @25 each = 150 pts, Unit Objectives: Spot bunkers and specified infantry = 200 points, spot mines (AT, AP and IED) = 200 pts. Total available = 1050. Compare these to Mission Objectives at briefing: objectives, spot mines, infantry and bunkers = 550 possible VPs. If I had known what the true victory conditions were, then my strategy would've been completely different, like bothering the cross the wadi when all the Syrians and the BRDM reinforcements were destroyed. And the Syrians likely to get the adavantage of double counting: destroying strykers is very likely to push Red Force into the >10% casualty mark (since Blue Force has only 60 men), netting 500 pts right of the bat. I must say I don't like hidden VP when playing H2H. How have others found this battle? THH

Well I reckon you could give it a pretty good go, you might enjoy the change of pace, and its only against the AI. Best THH

Just to clarify, is this discussion about sharing spots between units only applicable in Iron mode? I've played very little on Iron (is it the gold standard of CMSF2?). Since the player themselves can see what every unit does or doesnt see, is there a practical effect to this other than that a particular unit can't shoot at what it doesnt see? THH

That BMP come up to the crest and was roughly "turret down" to peak over with the ATGM aiming mechanism, rather than the whole vehicle sitting on the crest!

Yeah well, somtimes you just gotta punch a fella in the face to win the H2H scenario! THH

Just yesterday I pushed a BMP-1 up to a crest line using Slow and stopped it Unbuttoned, pretty soon it saw 3 Warriors move then stop in a group right in front. The AI took over, fired the ATGM to hit one Warrior and then reversed the BMP back down the slope out of LOS. Pretty nice, but i was just experimenting to test the BMP a bit on the basics.

With modern optics on tanks and APCs, is there an advantage in opening up? Does spotting improve in practice? How good are optics in CMSF2 anyway, are they 'equivalent' to 10x zoom on vehicles? 3x on infantry guns (10x on binos , night vision, javelin)? THH

Had trouble with my BMP-1 getting hull down in a recent (huge) game, the slope of the embankment meant that the gun couldn't lower than about 30 degrees (compared to target). I think the embankment was too high too steep. Their tiny little turrets seem perfect tiny little targets that are hard to hit. Maybe the BMP should've gone around the hill to maintain mostly level 'attitude' (cant think of the right technical word here). Where in a landscape can BMP's get decent hull down positions, and if its hull down, is it in the wrong place and away from its task of being a battle taxi? THH

Yep the editor is pretty straightforward mostly, though there are a few quirks (eg the exit objective isnt intuitive to me and I'd like the option of scoring points to a side if a unit does exit). I havent gotten into the AI yet, though. THH

Give the Syrians a go in this Challenge against Brit AI, your wont be disappointed by the tension! And dont forget to screen shot and post your result. Best THH

Ah OK yep that's dead easy, thanks What about Unit Objectives, can I delete them too? thx THH

Howdy, I've several objectives (unnamed and zero VP) in a scenario design that I need to delete/remove, but I can't find any way to do that and the manual seems to be no help. Any tips, please? THH

Wow! You're way better than the game and gone next level, beyond the normal victory conditions.

I know what you mean, its scary to play real time cos so many things are being missed in the game, and ill judged moves are made. I guess the only observation or learning I can share is that the strategy has to be good and tactics strong so a few mistakes don't stuff the chances of a win completely. Real time against the AI is one degree of difficulty but LAN play is even harder.

That is what makes the Challenge a challenge! Winning as Blue is easy, winning as Red takes real effort. Take the Challenge? THH

This ISNT a theoretical exercise! My fat fingers!

My most recent attempt - 2 Abrams for 3 T72s - can you better it? Played this in real time vs AI.

Sometimes you attack where the enemy is weak, but then you have to deal with him where he is strong, and by then you've whittled your strength of forces down just that little bit, making the second task a little harder. But the advice to attack where he's weak does seem to works in a penetration battle (or sub-battle) so you can use follow on movement, but less so in a battle of annihlation (say where casualty VCs apply) in the time and space scale the scenarios represent. If you can destroy the enemies main combat power, then you can destroy him elsewhere too. THH

To my mind, I wouldn't bother trying to apply RL to this question, the only question is how to use them to help you win the game. If casualties are not a concern, for instance, they may go places where they could well die, if that helps you spot and terminate the enemy. And if you're playing a game against the AI its just practice for when you play H2H. Against AI, you can try using Recon assets every which way and over and over again until you find a way that works in the scenario. If you do apply RL SOP and so on, then you're just using the software to simulate something (miniatures?) against AI which might be programmed to do some other thing entirely (not on the same wavelength as you). And of course the game itself may be quite a bit different from RL, except maybe in weapon physics, 'cos you dont have to deal with bad commanders or bad subordinates. THH

Winning or drawing as the Syrians against the Brit AI in the scenario is really tough, and I've come to doubt whether it's even possible! Can you do it? Post a screen shot and let us know how you go! Don't bother playing as the Brit (unless you're a beginner) 'cos its way to easy! This is a theoretical exercise about whether its possible or not, we need to see a screen shot and hear your story. Best THH

Yes, Its doable! I've done it to achieve a draw. I think i'll switch this challenge to a new topic for the members here to consider having a go at and see what comes back at me. Best THH

Thankyou, that's very helpful!