tiefelt

Apologies if I misunderstood. It sounded to me like you were driving the vehicles until they were barely in LOS and then stopping them immediately.
 
Anyways, I grew weary of deciphering other people's tests and did my own. BMP-3M vs Stryker M1126. Both have 2 man crews, both have a thermal imager on the gunner's sight. The moving vehicles top a rise 800m in front of the stationary ones. Quick and dirty; no spotting times, just who spots who first. 50 iterations each way.
 
BMPs moving
Stryker spots first: 45
BMP spots first: 5
 
Stryker moving
Stryker spots first 19
BMP spots first: 30
1 draw
 
Bottom line is that Black Sea assumes US sights to be more capable than Russian, and I have yet to see any convincing evidence to suggest that is incorrect. The degree to which they are better is debatable and I am not going to claim that this early version of Black Sea has it nailed at the outset. This sort of thing is difficult to quantify and usually boils down to people's gut feelings. Tweaks may be made.
 
But I also think we should put to rest the charge that stationary Russian units are routinely spotted first by moving US units, at least in cases of both having similar types of sighting devices. But if it's an older Russian vehicle that doesn't have a thermal imager and it's raining or foggy it may be time.

Ask Doug Williams as well, he is smashing the crap out of me . Cant even see whats destroying my vehicles most of the time and its definitely not air.
 
All my chaps have green C3 in their status bars. Just don't seem to be able to see things.
 
I hear what you say about the BMP-2M Antaress, but the gunner has the same optics as the commander, but with better fidelity and zoom. The offending M1 was infront of the BMP-2M, forward facing of the gunner and his optics at 300m. It drove up, stopped, and fired without even an unknown or unknown vehicle marker.
Sometimes the gunners are placed sideways in turrets in CM. I know that was an issue in Normandy, may have arisen again. I also would like to know more how this works, because I think there might be some under the code modifiers somewhere.

My game had an M1 , Bradley and a sniper team, jav team
run around corner onto grass section by rd

xxxx us units are here Rt Rt
this is a long road -700 yards to Rts


400 yards
Rt Russian sniper team
RT


My opponent cannot see my Units with RT russian tanks sniper and observer
he is stationary and i have a drone watching his units
i hit his units straight away shooting after moving around the side
His units cannot see me for up to 5 seconds after ive shot with my tank

Its hard to put vids up as i dont have much time to muck around with this and im playing multiple pbms on a ladder.

Ive also sent in bugs for RT for example and been told for example the HE shot going thru panther tanks without exploding on the tank but miles behind it may go into a future patch. still to be patched
This is after mucking around and sending files and write ups.
Just dont have time.
The whole spotting issue , Steve and the developers need to really explain in more detail how this works.
Im playing with hqs outside tanks directing or in command vehicles with massive c3 setups.
Still inconsistant at times

I agree that russian spotting is not working properly.
Ive been playing both sides in PBM and russian spotting is appaling unless you have a drone. Im dominating as a US player as a result.
One map i had 5-7 russian seperate units with binocs not able to see AT jav launchers shooting multiple times.
The javs were coming thru tree canopy to hit my tanks. 20-30 feet in woods i might add.
My russian scout vehicles cannot see much.
I thought my C3 just wasnt working but its setup pretty good for russian units.
My russian guys are spotting units further away in some instances than closer enemy units.
I have considered the opinion of this post and my opponents comments and my own experiences.
Something is wrong.
I appreciate Russian units have less scoped weapons but there recon armor is rubbish for spotting and hqs are not seeing much.
Please fix or somefink?

The BMP-2M is also pretty blind. Abrams drove up to a firing position 200m to the front of my vehicle (granted it was light rain), paused for two seconds then proceeded to destroy it with a frontal sabot shot. BMP-2M didn't spot it at all sadly.
 
Seems to me personally that spotting hasn't changed from CMSF. I wonder if there are any modifiers that we cant see at work.

I generally try to encourage people to test things when they have questions about game mechanics, but I don't think nuzrak's tests show anything. What does "BMP-3M moving into the LOS of static M2-A3 in open ground" really mean? If the moving units are stopping the instant they move into LOS of the stationary units then the movement is irrelevant. If they are moving while in LOS of the enemy then the distance and speed need to be known. The results are further compromised by the separate commander not effectively communicating with the crew, a known issue.

The last test I ran had the moving vehicles performing a ‘hunt’ command over a small blocking ridge line to bring its forward arc into the forward arc of the static vehicle in open ground approximately 100m away.
 
What I would expect to see is the static vehicle to have the upper hand most of the time or at least a change in the numbers in regards to the BMP; It just seems logical that even the BMP with its narrower spotting arc should get, in theory, a bump in spotting the high profile Bradley moving up over a rise in front of it. I know sky lining isn't modeled in the game, but silhouette is a factor I believe? 
But the numbers so far seem to show no significant change in spotting chance for the either vehicle, static or moving!
 
Again, it’s too small a test to be definitive, but it does seem to confirm, at least to me, a trend some of us are perceiving right across the board with Russian spotting.
 
For example, I am playing a game H2H right now where I had 3 x T90AM’s in woods covering a relatively tight open terrain corridor between a hill and woods. A basic good key hole position. They were all systematically KIA’d by a M1 that moved into the open ground approximately 500m away in two turns. None of the T90’s spotted the M1!
Now, that just doesn't seem right to me... and again its not conclusive because it's a single event, but it does seem to happen with frustrating regularity to Russian vehicles.
 
As to what any of this shows / proves you’re absolutely right Vanir that it might not show anything more than the game engine working exactly the way it should and if that is so, then that’s great, we can put this subject to rest and move onto a tactics discussion on how to make the Russian forces more viable for H2H play.
 
Bottom line though is that until we hear officially that there is an issue or not, more extensive testing needs to be done, and with more than just Bradley's and BMP's.
If I get time I'll try to do that because my gut feeling is still that the spotting is not working quite the way it should be...

Only the ones he doesn't like.

Ha, inglorious HATO lapdog assumption!
 
BMP-3 basic model, BMP-2M, and T-90A.
 
Everything else seems fine. Especially the T-90MS.
 
Models are the same, but with modifications in the case of the BMP-2M. But the model doesn't matter really does it its the code.
 
Wood, try it without units in the vehicles.

For what it's worth...

Spotting times for BMP-2M vs Stryker, 1200 meters
Mean = 72.4 seconds
95% confidence interval for Mean: 57.41 thru 87.42
Standard Deviation = 55.4
Hi = 214. Low = 15
Median = 47.0
Average Absolute Deviation from Median = 45.1
 
Spotting times for Stryker M1126 vs BMP-2M, 1200 meters
Mean = 29.1 seconds
95% confidence interval for Mean: 14.38 thru 43.88
Standard Deviation = 15.5
Hi = 73 Low = 1
Median = 25.5
Average Absolute Deviation from Median = 11.6
 
Number of times the Stryker spotted first: 22
Number of times the BMP-2M spotted first: 7
1 tie
 
...
 
Spotting times for BMP-2M vs Stryker, 500 meters
Mean = 21.9 seconds
95% confidence interval for Mean: 17.97 thru 25.83
Standard Deviation = 12.5
Hi = 53 Low = 4
Median = 20.0
Average Absolute Deviation from Median = 9.17
 
Spotting times for Stryker M1126 vs BMP-2M, 500 meters
Mean = 16.0 seconds
95% confidence interval for Mean: 12.11 thru 19.96
Standard Deviation = 8.58
Hi = 35 Low = 2
Median = 14.0
Average Absolute Deviation from Median = 6.43
 
Number of times the Stryker spotted first: 20
Number of times the BMP-2M spotted first: 9
1 tie
 
Note that each test has a sample size of 30 which is pretty low for this type of test, and the testing was not entirely scientific since the Strykers and BMPs were spotting each other instead of a common target, so the results should be viewed as suggestive rather than definitive.
 
That having been said, it appears the Stryker has a significant edge at all ranges but it is more pronounced at longer range. However, the Stryker does not spot first every time.

My own experience is somewhat limited therefore anecdotal rather than the result of testing methodology of any sort.

Playing the Russians I seem almost entirely unable to spot the US tanks or IFV's with my own T90's before I'm fired on, and often fired on repeatedly. Fair enough, the data sample is small. However, I have had no difficultly spotting infantry with my tanks, at similar ranges to the enemy tanks. It's not, at first glance, what I'd expect. Presumably, I am seeing infantry because it is moving and the enemy vehicles are stationary.

To be fair, I have had some exceptions. I've spotted an M1 with a T90 at considerable range. He popped smoke so I assume that I lased him. But it is a rare exception.

I can accept that Russian optics and vision technology is sub-par but I am quite surprised at how I spotted their leg units so easily compared to much larger vehicles. I don't even have contacts for the vehicles.

This is by no means a complaint about the game, just anecdotal observations.

Before I get into it I’ just want to say this is not a criticism of the game. I’ve been playing this title to the exclusion of all my other CM games since it was released and I am having a blast with the campaigns, the editor and the stock battles against the AI.
There is little doubt that this game series gets better and better with every new build released.
 
But… after playing a number of H2H QB games at the Elite setting as both the US and Russians one thing has begun to stick out very consistently, which is that Russian troops and AFV’s even with the best optics that they can have are performing at a level nothing short of appalling when compared to their US counterparts ability to spot enemy units.
In fact I would say that every game played so far as the Russian’s has gone along the lines of forward AFV’s and Infantry eliminated with little or no idea where the fire was coming from. Gradually sound contacts are established and Russian units are systemically eliminated by the scattered wall of ‘?’'s creeping toward them.
Having Drones up just illuminated how bad the Russian spotting was, showing clearly M1’s and Bradley’s, often blazing away with their cannons, sitting in action squares that unsuppressed Russian units (That included T90AM’s in a couple of instances) had clear LOS to but didn’t even have as much as a sound contact themselves.
 
Now I’ve played CM in every version since CMBO and I’m very aware that even over a number of battles we can sometimes see and convince ourselves of things that are not actually supported when tests are run so…
To make sure I wasn’t just imagining this due to circumstantial bias I went into the editor and set up a small map with a small ridgeline along its center with a scattering of trees and ran a series of very simple manoeuvre tests having Russian troops and AFV’s MOVE and HUNT up onto the ridge in a mix of open and hull down positions and into LOS of US infantry and assorted AFV’s and observed the results.
I then reversed the process and had the US vehicles and infantry do the same thing.
I then ran this test both ways under all of the different weather conditions and light conditions.
In all I run this test both ways about 50 times (the carnage was great, it didn’t take long J).
Now at this stage I would normally provide stats… but frankly there is no need to because what was observed was the following,
In every instance except 9 (that’s correct, just 9 in 100 runs) the US units spotted the Russian’s first and then almost as often simply eliminated the Russian units before the Russian’s could even establish a sound contact. Only twice did the US lose an AFV, surprisingly M1’s both times, to returning fire and never (that’s again correct, never) did the Russian’s ever fire first!
 
Even more interesting was that the US AFV’s and Infantry usually spotted the static Russian’s even faster after moving!
This makes me wonder how the spotting cycle is actually triggered; does it trigger when a unit enters a new action square and if so how often does that coincide with the base cycle for non-moving units? Either way, and I may be way off base as to how the underlying code functions here, but it just seems a little off in CMBS.
 
Anyway, this is becoming a very long post, when all I really want to know is,
 
1)  Is what I’m seeing just an accurate depiction of the technological differences between these nations optics and comms systems as we believe they will function in 2017?
 
Or
 
2) Is there actually an underlying issue in the way spotting is functioning for the different types of tech and does something need to be dialed up or down?