A Canadian Cat
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Posts posted by A Canadian Cat
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I want to see that AAR!!!
OK the video is uploaded. @slysniper made the ideal move. To the left of this position an HGM is covering the main road. The men in this building are covering the right of this building and there is no access to the alley on the left or this building itself from the other street. So he conducted some renovations:
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The arrow points in the direction the camera is pointing in the 3D environment. When playing one is looking in the direction the camera is pointing. I don't see what is so counter - intutive. It sounds simple, and straight forward to me.
And this is the heart of the problem. As a UI designer if you use something in the UI that looks like a real world object it needs to behave like that real world object. When it does not the UI breaks down and does not work. The fact that a large number of people do not know how to use a real compass and think the thing that looks like a compass is intuitive does not relieve designers from their mistake. In fact it means they should not be using a compass analogy because too many people do not know how a compass works.
Having the needle enclosed within a compass card reinforces the mislabeling of it as a "compass".Ken is spot on. I have been ignoring that thing since the first time I tried to make heads or tails of it.
Marco Bergman's mod does a wonderful job of cutting the associations of the game-aid with its being a compass.I agree. I am using his mod now and right away it was useful - thank you. It clearly shows what direction the camera is looking towards.
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This looks to me to be a well known limitation of the AS system, which has been well discussed in the CMSF forum. As I understand it, the tank isn't able to target the building because it doesn't have LOS to the center of the AS from the more oblique angle due to the other buildings. So, I don't think it is a bug as much as an engine limitation. As I recall this is an area fire limitation, if there were units visible in the building the tank would engage them. Of course, I could have this all wrong too...
I am not sure I would say it is well known - here at least. You have it right. The tank cannot area fire but can target any enemy that shows itself. I realize it is a design issue. I just think it should be given a high priority to be fixed. More fighting in urban environments means players will run into the issue more often.
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And if you want to save a smoke for later, you can just read the environmental conditions popup at any time during the game.
Michael
Now that I can understand the viewing direction gizmo (aka. the compass) that conditions popup will be useful. Thank you all. Before the kind folks here explained how to figure out which direction is what, that conditions popup was very close to unless to me.
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Vehicles pathfinding in building need to be improved. It's a nightmare in PBEM games.
It's my 1st issue with "city fighting" in CMx2.
Actually that is a really good point. I am not sure specifically what issues he has seen but I have seen problems of vehicles not fitting down streets that the look like they should fit. And even if the game knows that it cannot fit it should tell me. Yeah I realize it does not know instantly but some part of the code figures it out because my vehicles don't go down those streets they go another way.
IMHO this problem is not unique to urban fighting. This is a variation of the problem of no feedback when asking a vehicle to go through an opening in the bocage that is too narrow. Or across a wall it cannot knock down.
BFC I would love to have a way of knowing when this is happening. Ideally feedback at the point of placing way points.
A couple of ideas for the "how" are a broken way point line or ghost buster symbol (like what is used now for showing the vehicle cannot land on that AS). Or alternatively away to ask - for the selected vehicle - please show the route this vehicle will take given the way points I currently have set for it.
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Because the above screen shots are shrunk for viewing, here are 100% crops from the first way point where the tank should be able to target the building and from the third way point where if finally can. Notice the difference is the amount of adjoining wall that can be seen.
I think all would agree the tank should be able to target that building from either position. Further if the tank does spot the MG team that is in that building it will be able to target the enemy soldiers. And when they duck and can no longer be seen the tank will suddenly no longer be able to target the building.
I my opinion this is something that should be fixed - at some point. If I were a tester I would have logged this as a bug. I realize that this is probably an issue that comes from under lying design decisions so it will not be an easy fix. This is my number one game play issue - I guess I should change my sig now that I have articulated the problem:)
First way point - should be able to target but cannot:
Third way point - finally can target:
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Not 24 hours later I have the opportunity to show screen shots to illustrate my problem of targeting buildings in an urban environment. These are from an ongoing QB I am fighting. This is the second time I have fought on this map - it is a good one.
This is not quite the urban fighting I have been talking about. This is more of a village but it shows the problem.
What I will show is that a tank in the street is unable to target a building whose face is fully in view. There are no obstructions between the tank and the building. To successfully target the building it must move down the street to increase the amount of the building that it can see. Once it can enough of the adjoining side it can magically target the building. You will see that the tank should be able to target the building from all three of the positions I try, not just the last one.
Further I should point out that moving down the street in this context is not a big problem. I own this half of the village! So even the new position is quite safe for the tank. So, while this shows the problem the workaround is easy and safe this time it is not effecting play.
I want to further point out that if this were a more built up area this would be a bigger problem. Because there is space between the target building and its neighbors the tank only has to move a short distance down the street and it is still quite far away. However in a more built up environment there would likely be another building close by and moving that short distance would not allow the tank to see the magic portion of the adjoining wall. This is where the problem would start to effect play. In a fully urban environment tanks have to move too far up to get the shot and then they are no longer safe.
A bit of speculation on my part: I believe the problem is Action Square related. To me it appears that the tank cannot target the building until it can see the centre of the action square. So it is not really an amout of adjoining wall that needs to be seen but the centre of the AS the building is sitting on.
So without further blabbing the screen shots.
First I try to move the tank up from behind the building where I have it hiding. From here I has a clear LOS to the building (trees are turned on). You can see that there is no reason the tank should not be able to target that building.
The building next door is can be targeted no problem:
I try moving the way point down the street a small amount (camera has not moved). Still no joy.
I try again further down the street, ah sweet satisfaction I can target the building (bug again no camera change for the screen shot).
Same third position but camera moved to the new way point.
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Hand to hand combat? Doesn't exist in CM2. Too difficult to code, AFAIU. Not really a prob since that was vanishingly rare in WW2, the knife scene in SPR not withstanding. I believe there was a crude version of mano a mano fighting in CM1- essentially sound effects.
Why can't the side with lower Motivation simply surrender if trapped?
Surrender no way. My guys might have lost that building but the put up a fight first. Even the last guy who runs for it stops at the door and lobs one last grenade inside. Great moment. Course he dies from rifle fire from above...
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But I do have one issue, look at your example. Now if such a command was possible, how do you justify it if the unit is not in contact with the enemy tank already anyway. You (god) know where the tank is, but likeky the squad you are assigning the task to assault it with, likely does not have sight of it and knowledge of its exact location. You are the one sending it to the perfect ambush spot that you know, they would have had no clue of that unless they had scouted the area. we sometimes forget, we are moving our troops way more accurately still than likely would happen in real life. So having a command that would help them radar in on a moving enemy target is touchy, when would it be allowed and not allowed.
Yep, spot on for the case where the squad cannot see the tank yet.
The worst example where my guys paid the ultimate price though was in the case where the squad assigned the task could see the tank. They were in the bocage line and the tank drove just past them and stopped - facing further away. I gave them the order to go through a small gap pretty much right behind the tank hoping they would take it out easily with a close assault. The turn started and the tank moved further down the road - out of grenade range and my guys ran out into the lane and stood there like target dummies. And that is just what they ended up being.
With a follow command perhaps they would have followed it down the road and managed to get it before it spotted them (it did take many seconds before the tank spotted them). Or with a assault tank command perhaps the would have just aborted after the tank drove off.
Clearly these kinds of commands would take significant effort to code in the tac AI. Clearly this is a wish list item. I just hope some improved way of handing assaulting tanks makes it onto BFC's todo list.
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I want to see that AAR!!!
I spent some time this afternoon reloading old turns and recording it. Recording is done I will stitch it together tomorrow - I have some illustrations for my previous point about targeting buildings I want to post first.
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BTW thank you @slysniper for starting this thread. I have wanted to put forth my list of urban fighting issues for a while but never got my act together - too much fun playing the game
Were you inspired by our urban fight (Palma di Montechiaro) we have going right now? Because it has been fun and I do not feel we hit any of the issues mentioned here. So, lets be clear, it is possible to have a good fun urban fight.
I am getting my a** handed to me but it is fun finding tricky paths between the streets and setting up ambushes and then falling back. Sadly for me @slysniper has managed to avoid most of my ambushes and falling back has not worked out as well as I had hoped. I was particularly impressed by the building to building breach you did on the third floor. I did not even know that could be done - so cool.
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This. Also I would rather tell CM my INTENTION than string together many commands.
Clearly that would be pretty cool - I agree. It is however probably going to take a while before computer AIs can handle that. In the mean time I would like to see tweaks, changes, new commands etc. that will help us get a better experience in an urban environment.
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I also tried searching this forum and, of course, no matter how I search for subjects, I get the error message that my search is UNDER the three word limit and is too short?!
Forget searching using the built in search tool. Just give up trying and move on...
Try this Google using their site command. For example google site:battlefront.com range bazooka and there you go.
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Maybe some players forget that house-to-house fighting has always been awful bloody business. As long as I get only a third of my attacking party greased in taking a certain objective (i.e. the next block) I feel, I did a pretty good job.
I am not saying that there is something wrong with it being bloody I just think there are a few things that could stand improvement in this area.
Fighting in the woods is really bloody too but I have no concrete complaints specific to fighting in the woods. In fact I quite enjoy those moments where two opposing forces meet and a furious fire fight ensues. Grenades fly all over the place. Enemy units get mixed up in your lines. And both units end up running away from each other. To me it feels real and exciting and frustrating. Just like I want it to.
Frankly it usually feels pretty good everywhere in this game. An amazing accomplishment!
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Well, you will be glad to know that BF sees it your way, they do try to get the AI to do the small task and want you the player to focus on the larger picture.
Which I think is the right thing.
The problem is, as the game becomes more complex, that is much harder to do and get it to react realistically. Thus players, start wanting commands that can control or override the AI. Thus in a sence why we keep seeing request for better AI or for more commands.Most of the time when things go off the rails for a squad it is easy to chalk it up to "well bad things happen" after all your opponent is trying to kill your guys. I only get bothered when things go off the rails and I think "damn a real squad leader would never have done that". Yes, I know that leaders make dumb mistakes too. Clearly a crack +2 squad leader will make less than a conscript -2 leader. Frankly I do not feel this happens often - IMHO (clearly from the discussions on this forum many people have a different definition).
I think the disconnect usually comes from an inability to give orders that make human sense. For example, and this has happened to me several times, my enemy has a tank in the street (or a bocage lane) and I have unspotted infantry in the next lane (or in the bocage). The order I would like to give is "sneak up behind that tank and close assault it" or " sneak up behind that tank and use your AT weapon to blow it up". Instead what I have to do is give the squad a series of movement orders along the street to get behind the tank and then through a house and into the street so they are behind the tank where they will blast it. This has worked well. The trouble is that when the turn unfolds if the tank moves even 20m down the road the squad just follows the movement orders and ends up standing alone in the street in full view of the tank. In real life **** can happen and it is true an inexperienced leader might burst out into the street and have an oh **** moment - could happen. The thing is most humans would notice that the tank is not where they expected it to be and skip the part where they run into the street and get killed.
It is likely a area that will never cease to have issues and getting the right balence to keep the game playable is also a issue.Very True.
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Funny, more people no go land nav in real life than most other things. I couldn’t believe how many people failed it when I went through it at the NCO academy. Lots of officers wash out of it too during OCS.
Yes, I helped a lot of my mates figure this out in real life - which is one reason I was feeling so dumb not getting it in the game. I am defiantly going to install the suggested mod. If it does not look like a compass then I will no longer be confused (about direction at least).
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I find the best method for correctly deploying smoke is to identify my most valuable tracked asset, push it forward until the enemy turns it into a blazing wreck. I then carefully note which way the resultant pyre smoke drifts so that I may correctly lay a smoke screen in a futile attempt to retreive an already lost situation.
Well that was much more poetic that I was going to write but that pretty much sums up how I tell which way the wind is blowing. Sooner or later something is on fire and if you really want to tell before your valuable tracked asset is burning you can always have it pop smoke to test things out.
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Marco Bergman has an excellent mod which substitutes an "eyeball looking" in place of the "non-north seeking arrow".
Do you mean this one?: http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1084
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Calling it a "compass" is an insult to all magnetic devices. It is more of a "you're looking this way" device. Marco Bergman has an excellent mod which substitutes an "eyeball looking" in place of the "non-north seeking arrow".
Just wait till you need to determine wind direction for your smoke screen. That's when the "compass" will kick your butt, every time.
Oh, yeah for sure. I have never been able to make use of wind direction in the briefing. Time to look for that mod...
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I knew I would feel dumb after seeing the answer:-) Which only leaves the question with Juju's UI mod is the red arrow or the grey arrow pointing to the direction. I am thinking red.
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Very cool. Was that against the AI? That was a pretty nice looking map - what scenario or QB map was that?
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I know, I know it seems silly but I just do not get it. In real life I am perfectly capable of using a compass, really I am. But in game I just do not get it. It has never mattered before - I can tell where the objectives are and where my guys are what else do you need to know? Well I just started a scenario where I have no terrain objectives my only objective is to prevent the enemy from reaching the south edge of the map. But I have no idea where south is :-(. The units I have started with are in the centre of the map and seem to be facing every which direction. I have no idea which side of the map is what. My only help is the compass but it just spins around - help.
I have searched the manual - no mention of compass. I have searched the forum - lots of mentions but nothing that explains it. The basic question is how do I find the south edge of the map?
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understood, but when would anyone use a move order + indefinite pause in a 60 second turn?
OK might be true. A much more likely scenario which I do in pretty much every single game: With a tank that is stationary give it a 30s pause along with a fire order and then move to a location with a new fire order. I would think that this bug would mean that for those first 3 or 4 shots my tanks accuracy will be reduced even though it is stationary and has not moved.
I am glad Phil has cataloged this bug.
Shall try to start an unofficial screenshots thread?
in Combat Mission Fortress Italy
Posted
This happened a while back and I forgot to post it. I finally got an artillery kill on a tank. This was near the beginning of a Quick Battle that I ultimately lost
. At least this part was fun.
My Forward Observer was high on a hill well hidden and spotted a Sherman in the valley. He called in 120mm artillery on the first Sherman he spotted. The Sherman stayed nice and still...
Here it is taking a direct hit
And after it was all over
I shot video too: