nuzrak

The last test I ran had the moving vehicles performing a ‘hunt’ command over a small blocking ridge line to bring its forward arc into the forward arc of the static vehicle in open ground approximately 100m away.
 
What I would expect to see is the static vehicle to have the upper hand most of the time or at least a change in the numbers in regards to the BMP; It just seems logical that even the BMP with its narrower spotting arc should get, in theory, a bump in spotting the high profile Bradley moving up over a rise in front of it. I know sky lining isn't modeled in the game, but silhouette is a factor I believe? 
But the numbers so far seem to show no significant change in spotting chance for the either vehicle, static or moving!
 
Again, it’s too small a test to be definitive, but it does seem to confirm, at least to me, a trend some of us are perceiving right across the board with Russian spotting.
 
For example, I am playing a game H2H right now where I had 3 x T90AM’s in woods covering a relatively tight open terrain corridor between a hill and woods. A basic good key hole position. They were all systematically KIA’d by a M1 that moved into the open ground approximately 500m away in two turns. None of the T90’s spotted the M1!
Now, that just doesn't seem right to me... and again its not conclusive because it's a single event, but it does seem to happen with frustrating regularity to Russian vehicles.
 
As to what any of this shows / proves you’re absolutely right Vanir that it might not show anything more than the game engine working exactly the way it should and if that is so, then that’s great, we can put this subject to rest and move onto a tactics discussion on how to make the Russian forces more viable for H2H play.
 
Bottom line though is that until we hear officially that there is an issue or not, more extensive testing needs to be done, and with more than just Bradley's and BMP's.
If I get time I'll try to do that because my gut feeling is still that the spotting is not working quite the way it should be...

Before I get into it I’ just want to say this is not a criticism of the game. I’ve been playing this title to the exclusion of all my other CM games since it was released and I am having a blast with the campaigns, the editor and the stock battles against the AI.
There is little doubt that this game series gets better and better with every new build released.
 
But… after playing a number of H2H QB games at the Elite setting as both the US and Russians one thing has begun to stick out very consistently, which is that Russian troops and AFV’s even with the best optics that they can have are performing at a level nothing short of appalling when compared to their US counterparts ability to spot enemy units.
In fact I would say that every game played so far as the Russian’s has gone along the lines of forward AFV’s and Infantry eliminated with little or no idea where the fire was coming from. Gradually sound contacts are established and Russian units are systemically eliminated by the scattered wall of ‘?’'s creeping toward them.
Having Drones up just illuminated how bad the Russian spotting was, showing clearly M1’s and Bradley’s, often blazing away with their cannons, sitting in action squares that unsuppressed Russian units (That included T90AM’s in a couple of instances) had clear LOS to but didn’t even have as much as a sound contact themselves.
 
Now I’ve played CM in every version since CMBO and I’m very aware that even over a number of battles we can sometimes see and convince ourselves of things that are not actually supported when tests are run so…
To make sure I wasn’t just imagining this due to circumstantial bias I went into the editor and set up a small map with a small ridgeline along its center with a scattering of trees and ran a series of very simple manoeuvre tests having Russian troops and AFV’s MOVE and HUNT up onto the ridge in a mix of open and hull down positions and into LOS of US infantry and assorted AFV’s and observed the results.
I then reversed the process and had the US vehicles and infantry do the same thing.
I then ran this test both ways under all of the different weather conditions and light conditions.
In all I run this test both ways about 50 times (the carnage was great, it didn’t take long J).
Now at this stage I would normally provide stats… but frankly there is no need to because what was observed was the following,
In every instance except 9 (that’s correct, just 9 in 100 runs) the US units spotted the Russian’s first and then almost as often simply eliminated the Russian units before the Russian’s could even establish a sound contact. Only twice did the US lose an AFV, surprisingly M1’s both times, to returning fire and never (that’s again correct, never) did the Russian’s ever fire first!
 
Even more interesting was that the US AFV’s and Infantry usually spotted the static Russian’s even faster after moving!
This makes me wonder how the spotting cycle is actually triggered; does it trigger when a unit enters a new action square and if so how often does that coincide with the base cycle for non-moving units? Either way, and I may be way off base as to how the underlying code functions here, but it just seems a little off in CMBS.
 
Anyway, this is becoming a very long post, when all I really want to know is,
 
1)  Is what I’m seeing just an accurate depiction of the technological differences between these nations optics and comms systems as we believe they will function in 2017?
 
Or
 
2) Is there actually an underlying issue in the way spotting is functioning for the different types of tech and does something need to be dialed up or down?

Before I get into it I’ just want to say this is not a criticism of the game. I’ve been playing this title to the exclusion of all my other CM games since it was released and I am having a blast with the campaigns, the editor and the stock battles against the AI.
There is little doubt that this game series gets better and better with every new build released.
 
But… after playing a number of H2H QB games at the Elite setting as both the US and Russians one thing has begun to stick out very consistently, which is that Russian troops and AFV’s even with the best optics that they can have are performing at a level nothing short of appalling when compared to their US counterparts ability to spot enemy units.
In fact I would say that every game played so far as the Russian’s has gone along the lines of forward AFV’s and Infantry eliminated with little or no idea where the fire was coming from. Gradually sound contacts are established and Russian units are systemically eliminated by the scattered wall of ‘?’'s creeping toward them.
Having Drones up just illuminated how bad the Russian spotting was, showing clearly M1’s and Bradley’s, often blazing away with their cannons, sitting in action squares that unsuppressed Russian units (That included T90AM’s in a couple of instances) had clear LOS to but didn’t even have as much as a sound contact themselves.
 
Now I’ve played CM in every version since CMBO and I’m very aware that even over a number of battles we can sometimes see and convince ourselves of things that are not actually supported when tests are run so…
To make sure I wasn’t just imagining this due to circumstantial bias I went into the editor and set up a small map with a small ridgeline along its center with a scattering of trees and ran a series of very simple manoeuvre tests having Russian troops and AFV’s MOVE and HUNT up onto the ridge in a mix of open and hull down positions and into LOS of US infantry and assorted AFV’s and observed the results.
I then reversed the process and had the US vehicles and infantry do the same thing.
I then ran this test both ways under all of the different weather conditions and light conditions.
In all I run this test both ways about 50 times (the carnage was great, it didn’t take long J).
Now at this stage I would normally provide stats… but frankly there is no need to because what was observed was the following,
In every instance except 9 (that’s correct, just 9 in 100 runs) the US units spotted the Russian’s first and then almost as often simply eliminated the Russian units before the Russian’s could even establish a sound contact. Only twice did the US lose an AFV, surprisingly M1’s both times, to returning fire and never (that’s again correct, never) did the Russian’s ever fire first!
 
Even more interesting was that the US AFV’s and Infantry usually spotted the static Russian’s even faster after moving!
This makes me wonder how the spotting cycle is actually triggered; does it trigger when a unit enters a new action square and if so how often does that coincide with the base cycle for non-moving units? Either way, and I may be way off base as to how the underlying code functions here, but it just seems a little off in CMBS.
 
Anyway, this is becoming a very long post, when all I really want to know is,
 
1)  Is what I’m seeing just an accurate depiction of the technological differences between these nations optics and comms systems as we believe they will function in 2017?
 
Or
 
2) Is there actually an underlying issue in the way spotting is functioning for the different types of tech and does something need to be dialed up or down?

Absolutely amazing job, the game is fantastic!!!
 
But...
 
I'm not seeing any hit decals!
 
Did they not make it into this build or is it my install?

On the plus side, I'm certain that learning how to use the Russian / Ukrainian forces effectively against the technologically superior US troops will almost assuredly make you a better CM player in both Modern and WW2 titles.
 
Well, that was at least true for me with CMSF, where the learning curve for playing the Syrian forces, especially against human opponents, was absolutely harrowing but well worth it in the end. 
 
My two-cents on the key elements for fighting on the modern battlefield 'with inferior forces especially' are (as mostly already stated),
 
Use all possible cover all the time for everything you have. But note also that buildings won't protect your troops very much when they are spotted! Helicopters love troops on rooftops!!!
Don't move your troops until you have to and always do it with overwatch.
As the US forces, engage the enemy at range with fire superiority whenever possible.
Fighting against US forces, try to remain hidden and lure them into keyhole crossfire corridors then retreat quickly and do it again!  
Use scouts. It's better to lose a couple of guys or a Humvee etc, than a whole platoon, APC or MBT.
Use your artillery and CAS assets wisely.
Examine your troops thoroughly at setup and try to assign them tasks they are best suited to.
Learn how the C3 comms networks in CM functions, including its delays up and down the chain of command. I can't stress enough how important and how often overlooked this element of the game seems to be. Even having a partial contact because of good C3 links seems to make a huge difference in spotting times.
And lastly, be patient! The modern battlefield is very unforgiving, don't run to meet death!
 
One thing that will be interesting to see is how ECM affects the US forces and if it is enough to level the field?