[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Andreas, Danke für die Blumen!

I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum.

(...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...)

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

how many tank kills did Luftwaffe claim?

if you count the claims from Hetzer38's top scorers list in the other thread you get 1670 claims. add Rudel's unreal number and you get around 2200 claims.

even if you double the number to include lesser scorers etc it's still only 4400 tanks.

the problem with that number is that it fits too well the number of actual Soviet tank losses. if German tank killer performance was equal to that of Western Allies they should overclaim by at least 10x and thus rather claim 44 000 tank kills.

EDIT:

now, i'm not interested in airforces and i don't know how many tanks Luftwaffe claimed. i guess someone knows and will soon post the figure. i will form my opinion beforehands:

claims up to 5000 are strikingly accurate.

claims up to 15 000 are reasonable (e.g. temporary kills, dummy targets, multiple hits on same target).

anything above 20 000 is distortion.

it will be interesting to see where the actual claim falls.

...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive?

(just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested)

Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me!

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Andreas, Danke für die Blumen!

I was referring to undead reindeer cavalry's post in the CMAK forum.

(...and when I read the your answer I knew I posted it in the wrong place, but since this is a cross-post, anyway...)

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

how many tank kills did Luftwaffe claim?

if you count the claims from Hetzer38's top scorers list in the other thread you get 1670 claims. add Rudel's unreal number and you get around 2200 claims.

even if you double the number to include lesser scorers etc it's still only 4400 tanks.

the problem with that number is that it fits too well the number of actual Soviet tank losses. if German tank killer performance was equal to that of Western Allies they should overclaim by at least 10x and thus rather claim 44 000 tank kills.

EDIT:

now, i'm not interested in airforces and i don't know how many tanks Luftwaffe claimed. i guess someone knows and will soon post the figure. i will form my opinion beforehands:

claims up to 5000 are strikingly accurate.

claims up to 15 000 are reasonable (e.g. temporary kills, dummy targets, multiple hits on same target).

anything above 20 000 is distortion.

it will be interesting to see where the actual claim falls.

...maybe if get a quite accurate number for all the Luftwaffe's tank-kill-claims and compare it with the total of tanks the Soviets lost by (german) air-attack, maybe that would lead to something constructive?

(just like undead reindeer cavalry suggested)

Well, most likely not, but researching things like this is a lot of fun for me!

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 05, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier...

Anton Korol - Leutnant

* 08.10.1916 Breitenmarkt/Oberschlesien

RK 12.03.1945 as Leutnant after 600 FF

One of the best "Tank hunters" of SG 2 "Immelmann". He took part in the Polish campaign as Uffz. with 10./Inf.Rgt. 7. The French campaign saw him with 2./Inf.Rgt. 417 where he was promoted to Feldwebel on 14.03.1941. As an "old" glider flyer he volunteered for LW and changed from Heer to LW on 16.07.1941. He was trained as pilot and transferred to Stuka-Vorschule Graz and the to Stuka-Schule 2 at Piacenza-Foggia(italy). 01.11.1942 promoted to Leutnant der Reserve. 1943 he was with Erg.Staffel St.G. 2 and II./ST.G. 151. In combat from 01.07.1943-31.08.1944 with 3./St.G.2 (later 3./SG 2) "Immelmann" at the eastern front. 11.07.1943 first combat mission (FF) in the area of Charkow: 500. FF on 22.08.1944 in the area of Jassy(Romania). In March 1944 he destroyed with Hptm. Meyering and another pilot (N.N.) a strategically important bridge over the river Bug in the area north of Perwomaisk in spite of heavy Flak fire with all three a/c hitting the target. 13.06.1944 Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Because of his outstanding achievements he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 10.(Pz.)/SG 2, which he led until wars end with great success.

704 combat missions

4 times he was shot down

99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2)

~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled.

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - Oberleutnant

*18.07.1921 Niesky/ Schlesien

RK 26.03.1944 as Oberleutnant after 553 Feindflügen (combat missions)

There is not much known about this Stuka - and Schlachtflieger ace. Since the beginning of 1942 he flew with II./StG 1 (later II./SG 1) at the Ostfront and lead the 4th Staffel from 1944 until his death. He recieved the Ehrenpokal on 21.09.1942 and the German Cross in Gold on 02.08.1943 as Leutnant. He was awarded the RK for following achievements (among others): 78 tanks, 27 guns, over 100 trucks and 11 bridges destroyed.

On 21.07.1944 while strafing troops with his Fw 190 F-8 on the street of Kleszcsele (Hungary) and westward, he was shot down by Flak and hit in the fuel tank. Crashing from 1000m height and burning on the ground (senkrecht, brennend abgestürzt)

Exact combat mission count unknown, at least 600 mostly with Ju 87.

Andreas Kuffner - Hauptmann

*30.05.1918 in Deisenhofen/Oberbayern

RK 16.04.1943 as Oberleutnant after 600 combat missions

EL (No. 684) 20.12.1944 as hauptmann after 745 combat missions and approx. 60 tank kills

1937 he joined the Luftwaffe. He took part in the French campaign as Wachtmeister with a light Flak battery and recieved the EK II on 22.06.1940. Back in 1939 he had volunteered for pilot training but he was not accepted before August 1940 when he was sent to a Flugzeugführerschule. After his training in December 1941 he joined I./StG 2 in january 1942 at the northern sector of the Ostfront. Just 3 months later he had accumulated 200 combat missions. Since spring 1942 deployed to the southern sector. On 25.05.1942 he recieved the Ehrenpokal and in September 1942 the DKiG. In autumn 1942 he was wounded in air-combat and had to force land at the own Panzerspitzen. Until December he was in the homeland, afterwards Staffelführer of 4./StG.2 back in the east (Ukraine, Donez, Krim, Kuban Bridge Head). After 600 FF transferred to III./SG 151, which flew in the croatian area Bandeneinsätze (COIN). In February 44 as Staffelkapitän assigned with the deployment of 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 which he led with great success on almost all front areas 04.08.1944 named in OKW report (namentliche Nennung im OKW Bericht). 01.09.1944 promoted to Hauptmann. 25.09.1944 his Staffel destroyed their 300th tank since deployment. 22.10.1944 he destroyed his 50th tank with Ju 87 G. Since January 1945 Gruppenkommandeur I.(Pz.)/SG 9

30.04.1945 he was shot down and killed over Sülte near Schwerin by a Spitfire. On the same occasion both Staffelkapitäne(RK reciepients) were shot down: Rainer Nossek (killed) and Wilhelm Bromen (badly wounded).

He had a total of more than 900 combat missions as Stuka-and Panzerschlachtflieger. More than 60 tank kills.

Josef Blümel - Feldwebel

* 15.08.1920 Prode/Kreis Trautenau (Sudeten)

RK 28.01.1945 as Feldwebel posthumously

He joined Lw in autumn 1940 and was trained as pilot. Though, he only made his first combat missions in April 1944 on the Krim (Crimean Peninsula) when he came from 5./SG 151 as Unteroffizier to the newly mustered 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 (which flew anti tank missions for the first time in april 44). Within a short time he became one of the best tank hunters and most successful Schwarmführer of the Panzerjagdstaffel of SG 3. He destroyed his 34th tank on 28.07.1944 and was promoted to Feldwebel with effect from 01.07.1944. On his 123rd combat mission he would destroy 2 tanks for his 52nd and 53rd tank kills. His 59th followed on the 17.09.1944.

On the 19.09.1944 Blümel had a combat mission between 9.20-10.00hrs which brought his 60th tank kill. On the 2nd mission at 11.10 his Ju 87 G-2 (WNr. 494231) was heavily damaged by Soviet FlaMG and he had to crash-land his plane behind enemy lines. After the emergency landing near Kekava (18km south of Riga) Blümel and his Bordfunker Obergefreiter Hermann Schwärzel were executed (Obermeier wrote murdered) but shot in the neck from Russians (Soviet soldiers? not all were Russians). 3 days later they were found by a search squad consisting of Heer troops and members of the Panzerjagdstaffel under the leadership of Hptm. Kuffner in the meanwhile had retaken the crash location. They were buried with military honors.

Ehrenpokal and DKiG were awarded posthumously on 28.and 29.09.1944.

total of approx. 150 combat missions as Panzerjäger with Ju 87: 60 tanks destroyed

-> from Axis History Forum...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

And just to keep 'em close to the list, here are the few other bios I've already posted earlier...

Anton Korol - Leutnant

* 08.10.1916 Breitenmarkt/Oberschlesien

RK 12.03.1945 as Leutnant after 600 FF

One of the best "Tank hunters" of SG 2 "Immelmann". He took part in the Polish campaign as Uffz. with 10./Inf.Rgt. 7. The French campaign saw him with 2./Inf.Rgt. 417 where he was promoted to Feldwebel on 14.03.1941. As an "old" glider flyer he volunteered for LW and changed from Heer to LW on 16.07.1941. He was trained as pilot and transferred to Stuka-Vorschule Graz and the to Stuka-Schule 2 at Piacenza-Foggia(italy). 01.11.1942 promoted to Leutnant der Reserve. 1943 he was with Erg.Staffel St.G. 2 and II./ST.G. 151. In combat from 01.07.1943-31.08.1944 with 3./St.G.2 (later 3./SG 2) "Immelmann" at the eastern front. 11.07.1943 first combat mission (FF) in the area of Charkow: 500. FF on 22.08.1944 in the area of Jassy(Romania). In March 1944 he destroyed with Hptm. Meyering and another pilot (N.N.) a strategically important bridge over the river Bug in the area north of Perwomaisk in spite of heavy Flak fire with all three a/c hitting the target. 13.06.1944 Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. Because of his outstanding achievements he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 10.(Pz.)/SG 2, which he led until wars end with great success.

704 combat missions

4 times he was shot down

99 confirmed tank kills with "Kanonenmaschinen" - Ju 87G, one of those being a "Stalinpanzer" (IS-2)

~200 tanks heavily damaged or disabled.

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - Oberleutnant

*18.07.1921 Niesky/ Schlesien

RK 26.03.1944 as Oberleutnant after 553 Feindflügen (combat missions)

There is not much known about this Stuka - and Schlachtflieger ace. Since the beginning of 1942 he flew with II./StG 1 (later II./SG 1) at the Ostfront and lead the 4th Staffel from 1944 until his death. He recieved the Ehrenpokal on 21.09.1942 and the German Cross in Gold on 02.08.1943 as Leutnant. He was awarded the RK for following achievements (among others): 78 tanks, 27 guns, over 100 trucks and 11 bridges destroyed.

On 21.07.1944 while strafing troops with his Fw 190 F-8 on the street of Kleszcsele (Hungary) and westward, he was shot down by Flak and hit in the fuel tank. Crashing from 1000m height and burning on the ground (senkrecht, brennend abgestürzt)

Exact combat mission count unknown, at least 600 mostly with Ju 87.

Andreas Kuffner - Hauptmann

*30.05.1918 in Deisenhofen/Oberbayern

RK 16.04.1943 as Oberleutnant after 600 combat missions

EL (No. 684) 20.12.1944 as hauptmann after 745 combat missions and approx. 60 tank kills

1937 he joined the Luftwaffe. He took part in the French campaign as Wachtmeister with a light Flak battery and recieved the EK II on 22.06.1940. Back in 1939 he had volunteered for pilot training but he was not accepted before August 1940 when he was sent to a Flugzeugführerschule. After his training in December 1941 he joined I./StG 2 in january 1942 at the northern sector of the Ostfront. Just 3 months later he had accumulated 200 combat missions. Since spring 1942 deployed to the southern sector. On 25.05.1942 he recieved the Ehrenpokal and in September 1942 the DKiG. In autumn 1942 he was wounded in air-combat and had to force land at the own Panzerspitzen. Until December he was in the homeland, afterwards Staffelführer of 4./StG.2 back in the east (Ukraine, Donez, Krim, Kuban Bridge Head). After 600 FF transferred to III./SG 151, which flew in the croatian area Bandeneinsätze (COIN). In February 44 as Staffelkapitän assigned with the deployment of 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 which he led with great success on almost all front areas 04.08.1944 named in OKW report (namentliche Nennung im OKW Bericht). 01.09.1944 promoted to Hauptmann. 25.09.1944 his Staffel destroyed their 300th tank since deployment. 22.10.1944 he destroyed his 50th tank with Ju 87 G. Since January 1945 Gruppenkommandeur I.(Pz.)/SG 9

30.04.1945 he was shot down and killed over Sülte near Schwerin by a Spitfire. On the same occasion both Staffelkapitäne(RK reciepients) were shot down: Rainer Nossek (killed) and Wilhelm Bromen (badly wounded).

He had a total of more than 900 combat missions as Stuka-and Panzerschlachtflieger. More than 60 tank kills.

Josef Blümel - Feldwebel

* 15.08.1920 Prode/Kreis Trautenau (Sudeten)

RK 28.01.1945 as Feldwebel posthumously

He joined Lw in autumn 1940 and was trained as pilot. Though, he only made his first combat missions in April 1944 on the Krim (Crimean Peninsula) when he came from 5./SG 151 as Unteroffizier to the newly mustered 10.(Pz.)/SG 3 (which flew anti tank missions for the first time in april 44). Within a short time he became one of the best tank hunters and most successful Schwarmführer of the Panzerjagdstaffel of SG 3. He destroyed his 34th tank on 28.07.1944 and was promoted to Feldwebel with effect from 01.07.1944. On his 123rd combat mission he would destroy 2 tanks for his 52nd and 53rd tank kills. His 59th followed on the 17.09.1944.

On the 19.09.1944 Blümel had a combat mission between 9.20-10.00hrs which brought his 60th tank kill. On the 2nd mission at 11.10 his Ju 87 G-2 (WNr. 494231) was heavily damaged by Soviet FlaMG and he had to crash-land his plane behind enemy lines. After the emergency landing near Kekava (18km south of Riga) Blümel and his Bordfunker Obergefreiter Hermann Schwärzel were executed (Obermeier wrote murdered) but shot in the neck from Russians (Soviet soldiers? not all were Russians). 3 days later they were found by a search squad consisting of Heer troops and members of the Panzerjagdstaffel under the leadership of Hptm. Kuffner in the meanwhile had retaken the crash location. They were buried with military honors.

Ehrenpokal and DKiG were awarded posthumously on 28.and 29.09.1944.

total of approx. 150 combat missions as Panzerjäger with Ju 87: 60 tanks destroyed

-> from Axis History Forum...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 04, 2007, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look...

Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks

Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks

Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks

Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks

Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks

Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks

Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks

Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks

Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks

Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks

Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks

Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks

Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks

Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks

Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks

Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks

Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks

Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks

Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks

Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks

Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks

Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks

Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks

Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks

Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks

Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks

Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks

Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks

Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks

Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks

Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks

Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks

Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks

Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks

Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks

Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks

Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks

Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks

Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks

Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks

Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks

Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks

Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks

Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks

Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks

Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks

Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks

Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks

Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks

Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks

Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks

Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks

Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks

Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks

Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks

Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks

Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks

Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks

Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks

Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks

Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks

Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks

Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks

Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks

Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks

Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks

Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks

Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks

Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks

Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks

Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks

Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks

Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks

Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks

August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks

Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks

Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks

Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks

...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed...

(...at least those that I'm aware of...)

Cheers, Hetzer.

sources:

Ritterkreuz-Index

Ritterkreuzträger

Tank Killers

Top Tank Killers

Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces

Edit:

Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list...

...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots...

...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks...

[ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

I've updated the (incomplete) list of german WWII top anti-tank "kill-claimers"...have a look...

Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel - 2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks

Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 - 996FF - 117 tanks

Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel - SG 77 - 1217FF 104 tanks

Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann - 8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks

Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant -St.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks

Anton Korol - RK 12/03/45 - Leutnant -St.G2,10. (Pz)/ SG2 - +700FF - POW - 99 tanks

Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks

Max Diepold - RK 28/03/45 - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz.)/S.G. 77 - POW - 87 tanks

Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks

Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks

Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel -St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks

Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel -StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks

Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks

Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks

Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - RK 09/06/44 - Hauptmann-10. (Pz) / SG 9 -- + 16.07.1944 - 80 tanks

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks

Helmut Hannemann - Oberleutnant-10.(Pz)/SG 2, Stab/SG 2 - 77 tanks

Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 Pölz, Hubert Hptm. 76 11 6/StG 2, 6/StG 3, 7/StG 3, I/SG 151 - 965FF - 76 tanks

Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks

Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks

Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-3 I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks

Otto Ritz - RK 30/12/44 2 Feldwebel-10.(Pz.) / SG 9 -- KIA 12.02.1945 - 70 tanks

Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-14. (Pz.) / SG 9 -- POW - 70 tanks

Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-2 StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks

Werner Fehdler - Oberfeldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 2 - 65 tanks

Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks

Otto Schmidt - RK 03/09/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 77 - 61 tanks

Josef Blümel - RK 28/01/45 - Feldwebel-10.(Pz)/SG 3 - KIA 19.09.1944 - 60 tanks

Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks

Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-1St.G5 - +800FF - 60 tanks

Willy Tritsch - RK 23/12/42 20 - Feldwebel-1./SG 1 - ~580FF - POW - 60 tanks

Alfred Gies - RK 16/12/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-1./SG 2 - POW - 54 tanks

Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks

Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks

Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks

Franz Oswald - RK 24/10/44 -- Hauptmann-13.(Pz)/SG9 - +300FF - POW - 50 tanks

Franz Roka - RK 09/10/43 - Oberleutnant-6./St.G 1 - + 21.10.1943 - 50 tanks

Bruno Meyer - RK 21/08/41 - Hauptmann- LG 2, Sch.G. 2, SG 9, SG 104 - ~50 tanks

Karl Bleckl - RK 03/11/42 - Hauptmann-St.G. 1, St.G. 101, SG 101, SG 4 - +48 tanks

Hermann Buchner - RK 20/07/44 - Leutnant-Sch.G. 1, SG 2, SG 154, JG 7 - 46 tanks

Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks

Anton Andorfer - Hauptmann-St.G. 77, SG 77 - +45 tanks

Hartmut Vogt - Oberleutnant - SG 3, SG 77 - 41 tanks

Heinz Meyer - RK 17/04/45 -- Oberfähnrich-8./SG 2 -- POW - 40 tanks

Ulrich Mundt - RK 25/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 1 -- + 29.01.1945 - 40 tanks

Heinz Seiffert - RK 31/12/43 - Oberleutnant-KG 3, JG 54 - 37 tanks

Otto Heinrich - RK 20/07/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SKG 10 - 35 tanks

Herbert Dawedeit - RK 29/02/44 - Leutnant-St.G. 77, SG 111, SGr.200 - +34 tanks

Wolfgang Ensle - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-3./SG 2 -- 34 tanks

Otto Hulsch - RK 05/02/44 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 1 - KIA 16.01.1945 - 34 tanks

Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks

Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks

Karl Janke - RK 16/11/42 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 2 - POW - 32 tanks

Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks

Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks

Werner Honsberg - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 77, SG 151- 30 tanks

Wilfried Herling - RK 07/04/43 - Hauptmann- St.G. 2, SG 2 - +26 tanks

Erhard Jähnert - RK 18/05/43 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, St.G. 3, SG 3 - +25tanks

Erich Peter - RK 22/07/42 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2, SG 151 - 25 tanks

Eduard Tratt - EL 26/03/44 - Major-ZG 1, Erpr.Gr.210, SKG 210, ZG 26, ZG 2 - 350FF - 24 tanks

Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks

Siegfried Huber - RK 03/04/43 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 2 - 24 tanks

Willi Viertel - RK 05/02/44 - Hauptmann-7./St.G 1 - + 31.08.1943 - 24 tanks

Herbert Piske - RK 15/03/45 - Oberleutnant-3./SG 10 - 23 tanks

Hans Peterburs - RK 25/11/42 - Oberfeldwebel-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, SG 4 - +19 tanks

Heinz Graber - RK 19/06/42 - Leutnant-St.G. 2 - +19 tanks

Horst Schiller - RK 09/06/44 -- Major-I./St.G 3 -- + 02.06.1943 - 17 tanks

Rudolf Trenn - RK 25/05/43 -- Oberleutnant-8./SG 77 - KIA 16.04.1943 - 17 tanks

Arnold Döring - RK 17/04/45 - Leutnant-KG 53, KG 55 - 16 tanks

Erich Hanne - RK 13/08/42 - Leutnant-7./St.G 1 -- KIA 05.09.1942 - 16 tanks

Johannes Lutter - RK 05/10/41 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, ZG 2, SKG 10, SG 4 - +15 tanks

Hans-Adolf Meyer - RK 06/04/44 - Oberleutnant-St.G. 1, St.G. 3, SG 3 - - +12 tanks

Peter Jenne - RK 02/02/45 - Hauptmann-ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 - 12 tanks

Udo Cordes - RK 12/06/43 - Oberleutnant-9.(Eis)/KG 3, SG 2 - +11 tanks

Karl Spreitzer - RK 01/04/45 -- Leutnant-10.(Pz)/SG2 - 11 tanks

August Lambert - Oberleutnant-Sch.G 1, SG 2, SG 77 - +10 tanks

Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert - RK 01/07/42 - Hauptmann-JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks

Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks

Friedrich Platzer - RK 05/04/42 - Oberleutnant-3./St.G 2 - + 16.03.1942 - 6 tanks

...thats 3843 tanks, add Rudel's 519 and we have a total of 4363 tanks being claimed...

(...at least those that I'm aware of...)

Cheers, Hetzer.

sources:

Ritterkreuz-Index

Ritterkreuzträger

Tank Killers

Top Tank Killers

Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces

Edit:

Added two dozen (or so) pilots to the list...

...added the numbers of Feindflüge (FF) for twenty (or so) pilots...

...added Georg Dornemann - RK 24/10/44 -- Oberleutnant-5./Sch.G 1 / 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 / 13.(Pz)/SG 9 - +300FF - 50 tanks...

[ March 18, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

quote:

"It is perhaps the ultimate paradox that the very last film taken of a Luftwaffe aircraft in action for the newsreel should be of an anti-tank JU87-G on a solo sortie attacking soviet armour on the Oder in March 1945.

Slow, ponderous, poorly protected, vulnerable - a sitting duck.

It is unlikely that the poor soviet tankers on the recieving end of this Stuka's firing run, dying so close to final victory, would have gained any concellation(?) from the knowledge that, acoording to many experts, the plane that killed them, was no longer up to the task."

Cheers, Hetzer.

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

quote:

"It is perhaps the ultimate paradox that the very last film taken of a Luftwaffe aircraft in action for the newsreel should be of an anti-tank JU87-G on a solo sortie attacking soviet armour on the Oder in March 1945.

Slow, ponderous, poorly protected, vulnerable - a sitting duck.

It is unlikely that the poor soviet tankers on the recieving end of this Stuka's firing run, dying so close to final victory, would have gained any concellation(?) from the knowledge that, acoording to many experts, the plane that killed them, was no longer up to the task."

Cheers, Hetzer.

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

i think it's to be expected that rockets are inaccurate. i would imagine high velocity 37mm and 30mm rounds of German tank killer planes would be quite accurate at the given ranges (100-400 meters). for example check this video. the 25% accuracy of the British tests sounds fair enough to me.

I just stumbled over the short version of the video you've posted, just showing the attack on the tank (9 sec), it's here.

Two shots, two hits.

Can't identify the tank though...is it a russian medium tank (T34?), rolling backwards ?

Or is it a lend-lease tank, maybe a Valentine VI / VII?

Cheers, Hetzer.

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

..., ought to look at the "Stettin clip" to figure out what the effective armor thickness would be with the dive angle factored in.

...maybe one should also take a look at the "Kicking it like Rudel!"-clip.

The "Steckrübenwurf"-movie shows some great scenes of JU87D5s(?) swooping down at very low level and aiming their bombs with great precision directly onto the hulls of (most likely) T34s.

...and just for the interest, the "Rudel's interview in Luftwaffe-Lazarett 1945"-movie...god, what a fanatic...maybe someone with better german-english translation capabilities could translate Rudel's speech?

Cheers, Hetzer.

P.S.

And just for the fun of it, have you ever seen a Stuka rigged like this?

This picture was taken on 25.8.1943 and shows the welcome for Lt. Fritz Neumüller, Gruppenadutant of II./St.G. 77, after his 500 Feindflug. The Gruppe was based at Poltawa. Noteworthy in this picture is the modification of the armament done by the ground crew. The Ju 87D-3 or D-5 has beside the standard MG 81Z (=Zwilling, calibre 7.92 mm, from D-1 onwards) also a movable MG 81 on both sides. This gave Uffz. Wolfinger (right), Lt. Neumüller's Bordfunker, the possibility to fire in three directions. This may have been an unwelcome surprise for every russian fighter attacking this aircraft! The MG 81 Z has been removed, only the frame GSL-k81Z can be seen. The barrels seem to be carried by the 1. Wart on the left. Lt. Fritz Neumüller (RK 4.5.1944) was killed on 17.8.1944 when his Fw 190 was hit by AAA over the Baranow-bridgehead.

[from "Luftwaffe im Fokus" No 2 - 2003, p 17]

[ March 01, 2007, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

..., ought to look at the "Stettin clip" to figure out what the effective armor thickness would be with the dive angle factored in.

...maybe one should also take a look at the "Kicking it like Rudel!"-clip.

The "Steckrübenwurf"-movie shows some great scenes of JU87D5s(?) swooping down at very low level and aiming their bombs with great precision directly onto the hulls of (most likely) T34s.

...and just for the interest, the "Rudel's interview in Luftwaffe-Lazarett 1945"-movie...god, what a fanatic...maybe someone with better german-english translation capabilities could translate Rudel's speech?

Cheers, Hetzer.

P.S.

And just for the fun of it, have you ever seen a Stuka rigged like this?

This picture was taken on 25.8.1943 and shows the welcome for Lt. Fritz Neumüller, Gruppenadutant of II./St.G. 77, after his 500 Feindflug. The Gruppe was based at Poltawa. Noteworthy in this picture is the modification of the armament done by the ground crew. The Ju 87D-3 or D-5 has beside the standard MG 81Z (=Zwilling, calibre 7.92 mm, from D-1 onwards) also a movable MG 81 on both sides. This gave Uffz. Wolfinger (right), Lt. Neumüller's Bordfunker, the possibility to fire in three directions. This may have been an unwelcome surprise for every russian fighter attacking this aircraft! The MG 81 Z has been removed, only the frame GSL-k81Z can be seen. The barrels seem to be carried by the 1. Wart on the left. Lt. Fritz Neumüller (RK 4.5.1944) was killed on 17.8.1944 when his Fw 190 was hit by AAA over the Baranow-bridgehead.

[from "Luftwaffe im Fokus" No 2 - 2003, p 17]

[ March 01, 2007, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Hetzer - that's easy. They are flying over the Kursk battlefield several days into the fight. Tanks have been knocked out by the hundreds for days. Some are still burning. Some got killed yesterday. Some are 4 fields over in another unit. Now, the flyboys fly in and shoot at things. They look back or circle over the field they were fighting over. Not all 50 or so of them look back at the same field, however. One counts 4 burning tanks. Another counts 2 burning tanks and is sure one is one that he just shot at. Now they all get back to the officer's mess, and passing around a bottle of schnaps, they discuss what they saw. They do a little quick addition, or interpret some "at least"s. No problem.

Jason, I agree with you, under these extreme conditions, there was no way of being sure how many russian tanks were knocked-out by german anti-tank aircraft, and everybody claimed a lot of things...

Führer der Panzerjägerstaffeln (Fü.Pz.) Hptm. Bruno Meyer said about the battle on 7 July:

"It was impossible for us to count exactly how many tanks were knocked out since the whole success we shared with army units. However, the satisfaction of having helped to rectify an extremely awkward situation was sufficient for the anti tank fliers, and it was they who had carried the main burden of the fighting."

(Hs 129 Panzerjäger! - Matin Pegg, p 146)

And here's the story of 8 July:

...In the early hours of the afternoon, the situation in this sector seemed to calm down too, and the anti-tank Schwarm extended the surveillance area by flying in a north-easterly direction where the ground seemed to be occupied only by weak Russian and German forces.

The aircraft then flew on to the SS-LAH, whose men were concentrating on the hills north-east of Belgorod in order to defend advancing troops from enemy armoured colums reported to be pushing from the Morottcka area. From there,they continued their surveillance flights in an easterly direction past Belgorod and returned to the airfield. So, by sending out a Schwarm at set intervals to relieve the one already on patrol, and with each relieved Schwarm returning by the same route, it was possible to ensure that the entire front line was regularly covered.

To the east and north-east of Belgorod, there were several staggered woods stretching from north to south. From here, the country was difficult to observe and any enemy advance would be hard to spot. That afternoon, Meyer had been out on one of the surveillance flights himself without seeing anything unusual, but as he was returning home at tree-top height he saw in the fields to the west of the woods, a mass of Soviet soldiers which had certainly not been there when he made his outward flight to the SS-LAH. Meyer immediatlely gave the alarm over the radio, for he realised at once that an entire infantry brigade supported by a strong tank force was intent on attacking the flanks of the II. SS Panzerkorps and the SS-LAH.

Back at the airfield, Meyer's pilots sprinted to their machines and quickly took off. Besides arousing his own anti-tank Staffeln, his alarm also alerted the entire I. Gruppe of Sch.G 1. No sooner had the Hs 129 Staffeln scrambled, than the Fw 190s, guided by red and green flares, were taxiing from their dispersal areas to take off.

This co-operation between the two units was a relatively rare occurrence. Although neither was subordinate to the other, a strong bond of comradeship existed between the two commanders which had proved its worth since the days of the French campaign.

The absolute trust that the one placed in the report of the other immediately made the Schlacht-geschwader Kommodore realise the seriousness of the situation and Meyer's emergency call for close air support with 500 kg SD2 bomb containers was translated into action without delay. In addition, it was typical of the trus that General Seidemann, the Commander of VIII. Fliegerkorps, had in the ground-support pilots that he did not intervene in such situations but left the units a free hand in every respect. Although this generrosity was due to the General having known his unit commanders since the Polish campaign, his attitude nevertheless always earned praise. The Hs 129 and Fw 190 Staffeln arrived at Meyer's position at almost the same time and flew in formation with him while he personally directed them to their area of operations.

Druschel also flew up close to Meyer's machine to have his targets shown to him. Meyer then took over the command of his anti-tank Staffeln: "I had only ever seen such a mass of enemy soldiers once before, and that was at the beginning of the russian campaign in 1941. Wave after wave emerged from the woods tugging gun mountings, mortars, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns by hand along behind them. It was a weird sight to see these masses marching straight to the west as obstinately as mules, without taking any fighting action or any defence against our aircraft, as if the Soviet brigadier commanding them was intent on turning the wheel of military history back to pre-First World War times. Man behind man, block beside block, they came over a frontal area some 8 to 10 kilometres (5 to 6 miles) wide."

"Then followed the tanks. Totally obsolete light tanks rolled out of the woods behind the infantry. Medium and heavy tanks followed, using the roads from the villages situated between the woods. After our Schlachtgruppe Kommandeur had personally satisfied himself of the enemy's incredible behaviour, the Fw 190s hurtled down from above to drop their SD2 bomb containers into the masses, each direct hit knocking down a whole block of infantry. After the first attack, we viewed what happened next with amazement. Despite the havoc wrought by the Fw 190s' bombs, those men who were not killed or wounded struggled to their feet and hurried to join those blocks which were still intact, only to become the unhappy victims of the next bomb hit. Again more killed and seriously wounded men, but the remainder recovered and tried to join other blocks which spewed out of the woods as if there was no end to them. Such a sight was enough to give even the most hardened soldiers the creeps.

On they marched, without ever quickening or slowing their pace. It was like watching a sinister steam-roller moving forwards. Even when the first ground-attack aircraft went home and the next Staffel dropped its bombs into the masses, they still did not stop their march but moved on without taking defensive action or seeking any cover. Only when the Fw 190s started mowing their first ranks with cannon and machine-gun fire and bombs began to fall on the outskirts of the woods to the west did this steamroller slowly grind to a halt. Utter confusion now reigned on the battlefield as the ground-attack aircraft continued to strafe the enemy without respite."

"Then, hardly discernibly, the enemy began to retreat. At first it was only a slight hesitation, but gradually there was a marked increase in the speed of withdrawal turned into an avalanche. One block carried another along with it until all the soldiers ran back and the whole mass of frightened men stampeded into the woods."

Now Meyer's anti-tank aircraft systematically started their slaughter, as Oblt. Georg Dornemann recalled: "When we arived in the area we saw marching infantry well concealed in the woods. Behind them we discovered tanks rolling forward, but it was impossible for us to establish the exact number. As they came out of the woods we counted ten, twenty, thirty and then gave up as more and more appeared - certainly in the strength of an armoured brigade. We were fully aware that the tanks presented a deadly menace to the rear flank of our Panzerkorps; we had to go in without delay and stop them."

"My Staffel, together with other Staffeln, attacked in relays and the enemy suffered heavy losses. Our pilots could see the panic-stricken response of the Russian tank crews and the retreating armour presented splendid targets for us. Each pilot made his run-in at low level and fired his armour-piercing shell at just the right instant, just like on a firing range. When we went in for the kill, a steady approach and well aimed shot were vital to knock out a tank - I would say it was real art."

"When the tanks were knocked out, they belched fire and smoke. Others did not get clear of those which had been knocked out and collided with them. Later, interrogated prisoners confirmed just how successful our attacks had been and that they had been forced to withdraw."

Not a single Russian tank succeeded in attacking the German flank. After three hours of dreadful work the Henschels and Focke-Wulfs flew away, leaving behind them a battlefield littered with the dead and strewn with the gutted remains of knocked-out tanks from which plumes of smoke spiralled high into the air. As dusk fell, the darkening sky was lit with an occasional flash as flames reached a petrol tank or ammunition store.

That evening, after the last of the machines had returned to its airfield, the staff of the Panzerkorps asked for a reconnaissance mission to be carried out early next morning. According to Meyer, the Panzerkorps reported that they had heard a geat deal of unexplained battle noise during the afternoon and were most surprised when they were told that a Russian attack had already been stopped and beaten back without a single German soldier having to take part. A patrol by a few aircraft was flown over the battlefield the next morning, but they reported that the area was completely quiet. Just how successful the Henschel Staffeln had been on 8 July is confirmed by Luftflotte 4's war diary which states that on that day:

"The Panzerjäger were especially successful. Eighty tanks were completely destroyed and a further number damaged."

(Hs-129 Panzerjäger! - Martin Pegg, pp 146-150)

There's no doubt that large parts of Meyer's story sound like a Disneyland-fairytale, but shouldn't there be at least some truth to it?

Is there no doubt there wasn't another Russian unit "AUSGEBOMBT" on that day...in these fields... ?

Wouldn't they have noticed the difference between 7 or 30-40 (or so, in no way they knocked out 80 like in Luftflotte 4's war diary ) knocked-out tanks?

God, my fingers are aching...typos in the quotes are most likely by me...

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ February 28, 2007, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

And in my opinion WW II is a bit different from Desert Strom, therefore the silly comparison.

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

Edit:

You confirm dead Russian tanks by reading the contemporary Russian staff reports where they write "and we lost 12 tanks today". Why is this hard?

Let's take your "most famous air strike at Kursk" - example.

How could it be that an entire formation [4.(Pz.)/Sch.G 1 and I. Gruppe of Sch.G 1] are mass hallucinating dozens of knocked-out russian tanks belching smoke and fire north-east of Belgorod when in fact only 4 T-34s and 3 T-70s were knocked out?

No pilot armed with "space age weaponry" has ever achieved 80 aerial victories, so it is silly to believe Manfred von Richthofen did so in world war I using "stone age weaponry".

No "modern" combat pilot has achieved 352 aerial victories in any war so Erich Hartmann is just a comic book fantasy-figure.

I just don't think that conclusions about Desert Storm aerial-weaponry effectivness are the ultimate proof that the Ju87-G sucked big time when being flown by highly skilled professional pilots, often with years of experience.

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ February 27, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...

Weren't they retreating during the whole time Rudel was shooting tanks? How do you confirm tank hulks if you are constantly going the other direction?

Good point!

But a retreat could take several days, if not weeks.

(for example: the retreat from Rschew in March 1943 took what, 20 days?)

Weren't there enough examples of attacking / broken-through russian tanks which had to be defended against / counterattacked with parts of the Army retreating and other parts defending / counterattacking to make the retreat possible ?

Wouldn't these defending / counterattacking units notice the difference when being helped by dedicated anti-tank aircraft?

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[The Bouncing .50 cal - can it kill a tank?]

4. Rudel reports he fired on tanks at targets at 100 - 200 meters. Given the speed of a Stuka and the fact diving a Stuka at a tank requires a good deal of a pilot's attention, this begs the question, how did Rudel manage to see what the rounds did?

Wasn't there someone else on board with Rudel, who could confirm if the target was knocked-out properly ? :eek:

"We've got him, he's burning!" /

"You missed him, you suck!" /

"You give me that bottle of Cognac of yours and I confirm that you knocked-out 3 tanks." "FOUR!" "Deal."

...or whatever comment the Ju87's rear gunner made in such cases... :confused:

7. Rudel's tank kills were confirmed not by people counting hulks on the ground, but by other pilots under fire like he was, and for practically all purposes under his direct command.

Sorry, but isn't it quite dumb to say that none of his tank kills were ever confirmed by ground troops ? In four years of combat ? On the Eastern Front ? :confused:

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Well, yea, however - why don't we discuss some other german WWII tank-busting pilot's claims...

Edit

I've posted an updated list at page 7 of this thread.

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ March 03, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Well, yea, however - why don't we discuss some other german WWII tank-busting pilot's claims...

Edit

I've posted an updated list at page 7 of this thread.

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ March 03, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[**MikeyD does LAST TWO late G Panther Mods!**]

I fear I've become a "MikeyD-Fanboy"...

...just amazing what you have done!

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Originally posted by Tero:

...

He flew some 2500 missions and claimed some 1400 tanks and vehicles killed (but of course you knew this). That adds up to slightly under 1 kill every second mission. Given the Red Army loss rates I would not say that is overly optimistic, even at face value. Especially since his missions span over the period of 4 years.

Hell yea, why not?

How many allied pilots flew that many (2.530) combat missions ?

How many were shot down / had to crash-land 30 times and lived to tell the story ?

Come on, leave him his "Goldenes Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes"!

BTW, Rudel didn't really sink the "Marat", but seriously crippled her...

Marat 1939

Wrecked conning tower after explosion

Marat after explosion

Marat wreck, hull painted as concrete quay

Marat now Petropavlovsk, 1944 or 45

Marat now Volkov, 1951

Cheers, Hetzer38.

Edit Hmm, well, after reading BigDuke6's previous post - let's say he destroyed only three russian Panzerkorps, alright BigDuke6?

[ February 25, 2007, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

Originally posted by Tero:

...

He flew some 2500 missions and claimed some 1400 tanks and vehicles killed (but of course you knew this). That adds up to slightly under 1 kill every second mission. Given the Red Army loss rates I would not say that is overly optimistic, even at face value. Especially since his missions span over the period of 4 years.

Hell yea, why not?

How many allied pilots flew that many (2.530) combat missions ?

How many were shot down / had to crash-land 30 times and lived to tell the story ?

Come on, leave him his "Goldenes Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes"!

BTW, Rudel didn't really sink the "Marat", but seriously crippled her...

Marat 1939

Wrecked conning tower after explosion

Marat after explosion

Marat wreck, hull painted as concrete quay

Marat now Petropavlovsk, 1944 or 45

Marat now Volkov, 1951

Cheers, Hetzer38.

Edit Hmm, well, after reading BigDuke6's previous post - let's say he destroyed only three russian Panzerkorps, alright BigDuke6?

[ February 25, 2007, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

I think this a a better Rudel-source...

Hans Ulrich Rudel

...lots of nice photos!

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)]

I think this a a better Rudel-source...

Hans Ulrich Rudel

...lots of nice photos!

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[**More MikeyD Early AND Late Panther G Mods!!**]

Vom Allerfeinsten!

Love them! Love all of them!

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[**!IMPORTANT! MikeyD Panther G PATCH FIX!!*]

Diamond-pattern Zimmerit...

Mikey - I'm speechless.

Cheers, Hetzer38