rudel.dietrich

Syrian Special Forces What most have been waiting for im sure. A detailed look at the Syrian commando teams. This along with the airborne is the elite of the Syrian military. Crack units who get the best small arms that Syrian can procur. They are experts in fire arms, demolitian, infiltration, assasination, interdiction and operating behind enemy lines. So without further ado, lets take a look at a squad. A typical SF squad is just like a Syrian army squad. 9 men Squad leader will be armed with a AKS-74U sub machine gun. His assistant will be armed with a AKS-74 and a radio. Decent model Russian tech. The assistant will also lead a fire team. The LMG gunner will carry a RPK-74, scoped. His assistant will csrry a scoped AKS-74. All other men would be armed with AKS-74s or AKS-74Us I could not find any ryme or reason why AKS-74Us are carried. Maybe it is up to each soldiers preference. They share ammo and parts with the other weapons so it would not be a burden. Here is how I would do it if I was BF. Each man besides leaders would be a 25% chance of carrying a AKS-74U Only way I can think to do it. Squad leader has access to IR and NV binoculars. LMG assistant has acess to NV goggles. I am persuming he would the one who would spot targets for the squad. Goggles to other tend to be handed out on a rather random basis. Again maybe preference or those with the best eyes/marksmenship? Maybe a 30% chance per soldier... Grenades are carried by the truck load. Frag, smoke, illumunation, stun and defense grenades as well as thermal grenades to disable vehicles. Small numbers of mines are also carried on a squad level One soldier has a GP-25 40mm grenade launched attached to his rifle. This can also fit the AKS-74U 28 frag rounds 4 smoke rouns 4 illumiation rounds Body armour is prevalent and I would say it is a safe guess every soldier has access to at least a low level of protection. Kevlar helmets are also standerd. Uniforms are dark brown and black in case anyone was curious. Now her is one point of contention between me and Steve. I found little evidence that the RPG-29 is used and even less evidence that is it used in even moderate qunaities. I know some were reported in Lebanon a month ago, but just because they were there does not mean Syria supplied them. Still, the chance is there and I did find some source supporting its use. If it is included then I would make it only on like a 15% chance per squad. Otherwise the RPG-16D is used. Each man carries one besides the LMG gunner. This would be a total of 8 shots for those keeping track. They use late model tandem rounds. My sources state 450~mm of armour penetration is possible. These are light weight cheap weapons so that is somewhat impressive. APCs would stand no chance and a Abrams from the side would be damaged. A SF platoon is 3 sqauds. A company is a 6 man command squad and 3 platoons. A comapany also has two sniper teams. Armed with a IR scoped SVD and a assistant with a laser range finder, IR/NV goggles and a scoped AKS-74. One source stated emphaticly that both sniper and spotter carry a RPG-16D. One source also stated that the sniper carries a SMG. Possibly a MP-5. Most SF soldiers carry pistols. Types were not given and I take it these are not standerd issue. Probably should be modeled though. Now a batallion is very interesting. Three standerd infantry companies are in a batallion. A fourth 'weapons' company is also also in a batallion. The formation of this company was not really that clear. I do know however what goes in one, just not the number of each team... ATGM teams of three mean each. These would be AT-13 Metis teams or AT-14 Kornet teams. RPG teams or two men each. I guess these could be broken off to bolster the AT potential of any company or platoon. I guess these are where your RPG-29 teams would come into play. Engineers Armed soley with AKS-74Us Armed to the teeth with special weaopons. Mostly for demolition work. Armed with mines. Sniper teams. I guess these would be doled out to whomever needed them. Drviers, the batallion has a few trucks and/or BDRMSs Radio equipment The batallion is listed at ~70 men. I guess you can get from what what you will. Each batallion is a self sustaining force capable of any job thrown its way. Now there is one more regiment that Syria has This is the elite Al-Sa'iqa regiment. I could not find much on these guys. They appear to be more police than soldiers. Couter terrorism and special political jobs seem to be what they do. Probably lots of nasty kidnapping and murder to boot. They are the elite of the elite and have no clear formation. They are also armed with anything they can get their hands on. M-16s, G-36s, AKs, rifles, MP-5s Etc etc Not sure if BF is interested in them, but in case of a war I suspect this group would be there for a right. They use lots of foreign nationals as well. They have some formed east Germans among them as well as non Israeli Jews. Can speak several languages and are believed to have operated inside Israel on occasion Can't say much more than that.... Not sure how they would be modeled since im not sure if they have heavy weapons. Maybe just a elite group armed to the teeth with small arms. Anyways, there is a look at the Special forces. That also pretty much wraps up what research. From here on out I am here to answer any questions anyone might have as well as take any requests BF might have. I have omitted a few groups since I did not think BF would be interested. Syria has a AT brigade I did not post any info on AA units I did not post anything on the Syrian Marines A few other groups I did not touch on. If BF needs the info I will post it. Hope everyone enjoys

Thats it The other was listed as a 8x IR scope and was almost as long as the gun itself. Shares some commonality with a SVD scope. Why you would need 8x on a 5.45mm weapon I do not know...

HEAT does a number on buildings. It would do little damge to the structure however. It would strike the building and burn a hole in the outer wall. It would then vent its explosive content and all hell would break loose. You would see a small flash and a puff of smoke and then a neat hole. But upon entering the bulding it would look like a artillery shell had went off. ATGMS would do the same thing but on a smaller scale. I remember in Afghanistan we fired a Milan at a fort like complex. Punched a 90mm or so hole in the outer mud wall. Inside it was a V of destruction out away from the hole. Finally about 12 meters away from the wall that was struck was the back wall. About a 5 meter section of it had been blown out and for about 20 meters you could see deep pockmarks where shrapnel had struck it. [ September 07, 2006, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

Nope not it

The stocks are skeleton stocks. I did not know the AKS-74 did not have a sight rail...hmmm However, I really see no reason that a sight rail could not be attached, even post production. The Syrian special forces also use the AKS-74 along with the AKS-74U. Skeleton stock on those too. As for optics, I really have no idea. I only saw pictures of short optics that were labled as 4x I saw reference to larger optics that were almost the entire length of the gun itself and were labled as 8x IR sights. As far as I can tell every Syrian special forces rifle mounts a scope except for the AKS-74U and those with gernade launchers. I will touch on that more here in a few hours. As far as I know the drum fell out of favour because of weight and feed problems. Seems to be though that it would make the gun more balenced.

They use the AKS-74. They have a stock. The pictures I saw looked much like that one. Black plastic and polymer. Light weight and more durable than wood. Russia has finally joined the 20th century in that reguard. I do not think their RPK-74s are the N models. But I do think they are all equiped with scopes. I am sure about the drum part, all pictures I saw of them in action and in review had drums attached.

From the side or rear any tank in the world is vulnurable. Even a T-55A if it can get a side shot should be able to penetrate an Abrams from the side. The trick is keeping the Abrams front armour pointed towards the danger at all times. Nothing short of a RPG-29 or Kornet/Metis is going to be able to punch a hole through that armour with any regularity. A T-72 or T-12 AT gun might be able to damage it from the front but it would have to be lucky to do so. And even if you do not kill it, the constant hits could do damage to sites, or the MGs or the main gun if the barrel or the base is struck. I don't think US tanker in their right minds thinks their tank is indestructable. They think it is the best tank in the world, and they have good cause to think so. But they know its limitations. Smart playing should keep the Abrams alive and in control of the field. I think there are four rules to keep in mind. 1. Keep your front pointed at the enemy. This is key. 2. Keep the range distant and use your superior optics. 3. Keep in the company of friends. That is what they are for, if your must get close, keep infantry on your flanks and securing your rear. 4. Shoot first and ask questions later. Use that big 120mm gun! If its hostile or even looks hostile, pump a heat round into it if your wrong then all thats wasted is a few thousand $ for the round. Also make liberal use of that .50 MG

I hear Damascus is lovely in autumn

Your kidding?! </font>

Nah its actually sort of fun. I enjoy this sort of stuff. But people are starting to ask why im asking so many questions about Syria [ September 05, 2006, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

Platoon leaders can call in support fire correct? Syrian airborne and special forces platoon leaders should be the only Syrian platoon level units with radios. Regular army has radios only at company level and up.

Syrian Airborne Now we are getting into the good stuff. The Syrian airborne IMO is every bit as poficient as the Syrian special forces and are better infantry than the guards forces. They are highly trained and well equiped. Organization is familiar but with a few changes. A airborne squad is 8 men. They have the training to break down into and fight in two fireteams. One fireteam is four riflemen. The other fire team is the LMG gunner, his assistant, the grenedier and the RPG gunner. All airborne forces use the AKS-74, this version has a folding stock. I have a few dozen pictures and all of them are late model AK-74s Black plastic stock and furniture,black metal magazines, no wood at all. Not that is matters much, but these are light weight and the black colour must be reflected in the game or it is really going to bother me Ammo load is 210 rounds per man 7 men in the squad are armed with AK-74s. The squad machine gunner is armed with a 5.45mm RPK SAW. These are also black platic with polymer handguards. Now here is something I saw in a few sources and am attempting to verify. They stated that all Syrian AK-74 SAWs are mounted with scopes. One sources said they were all the RPK-74N version with an IR scope. I will do more research in this area. If true that should be modeled in the game somehow. More on that later. This SAW also uses 75 round drums. Ammo load is 600 rounds in 8 drums. Airborne squads make use of grenadiers. This man is armed with a AK-74 that has a GP-25 40mm grenade launcher attached. My sources listed 32 rounds are carried. That sounds like alot of rounds. Those would have to be carried by multiple squad members. 26 of the rounds would be frag rounds. 4 would be smoke rounds and 2 illumunation rounds. The RPG seems to be the RPG-16D Rounds seem to be somwhat modern as would be a threat against all APCs and tanks from the sides. 8 rounds are carried and all look to be HEAT rounds. One source said 4 different men carry RPG rounds to offset weight. I found no evidence that the RPG-29 is used. A platoon leaders squad is just like a normal squad. A radio is carried per platoon. Three squads make up a company. The commpany command squad is also 8 men also with a radio. 3 platoon make up a company. Each platoon has a sniper section. This is two men. One is armed with a late model SVD with an IR scope. He carries 60 rounds. The other man is security/spotting and carried IR binoculars and carries a AKN-74 with a 6x IR scope. I guess he would also engage targets inside of 400m So to sum it up. Each company has 1x Company HQ squad 3x platoons with 12 squads 3x sniper sections with two men each A batallion is 3 companies. Only addition is two three men ATGM teams. It seems all of Syrias Milan systems have been given to the airborne. They seem to be Milan III systems with early/mid 90s missles. While now outclassed the Milan is still a great system and with those missles posses a threat to just about anything. They also appear to have small qunaities of the AT-13 Metis and AT-14 Kornet. Deadly! Ammo load is 4 missles 4 SPG-9 teams are also included per batallion. I guess these would be last ditch ambush attempts. 8 HEAT rounds and 4 HE rounds. Another point of contention seems to be engineer companies. A few sources said these were attached at the batallion level, a few more said a higher level. A engineer company is two platoons of thre squads and each squad has 10 men. They are armed soley with AKU-74s (late model, again in black) This is the short barrel SMG version of the AK-74 One LMG per squad and one flamethrower per squad. One RPG per squad. They are loaded up with special equipment but it was a bit sketchy. Grenades, grenade bundles, defensive grenades, breaching charges, mines, proximity mines etc. I will try and find out more. No snipers in engineer companies or platoons. Not that it matters in CM. But Syrian airborne forces do not appear to be capable of actual parachute operations. However they are capable and quite good at helicopter insetion on a small and medium scale. For ground operation the main method of travel is trucks and some BTRs As I said earlier in the thread and in another thread. Syria appears to have between 80-90 BMP-3s If a ground war broke out a portion of their airborne forces would be mounted on these would be quite formidable in the defensive side of things. I did not find any evidence of body armour for airborne forces. However their radio network seems to be adequte and they do posses some IR and NV goggles. They would have some ability to fight at night and in bad weather. They also appear to make use of shaped charges, breaching charges and many types of grenades. I found some evidence that several of the Soviet large radius defensive gernades are also in use. Besides the special forces these will be the best equiped men that Syria has to offer. I am going to do a bit more digging to see if I can find out more about their IR and NV equipment and study the ATGM and RPG-29 issue. Hope this was interesting. Up next I do special forces! [ September 06, 2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

Steve has already said that the number would not justify including it. </font>

Tonight im going to do airborne forces. A subject dear to me They get some of the better stuff so it is interesting stuff. Stay tuned

I think my point has been missed. Syria HAS 75-85 BMP-3s This is not a report or speculation or reporting ona deal. These are actual platforms on the ground in Syria that have been purchased and delievered. I am close to 100% convinced they have the weapon. It is not a fantasy weapon, it is a weapon that BF should change their minds and include because the army they wish to model actualy uses it. I can't say it any clearer than that

A report just landed on my desk this morning that says Syria and Russia have worked out a deal which would trade natural gas and other natural resources in exchange for paying down its debt and opening up the way for new arms deals. I will keep an eye on this. One think Steve said earlier I had missed and want to address. I think that would be a mistake. I have seen evidence which shows that the Syrian airborne has a stock of BMP-3s and would mount a portion of the airborne division on these. I think it should most certainly be modeled.

I also think the sucess of failure of the game will be up to scenario designers. If they can do a good job and present challenging scenarios then I think the game will be sucessful. I already have dozens of ideas if I can learn the scenario editor

I would not really reguard any SP arty piece as a work of art More functional than anything else But take my little comments with a grain of salt. I am by no means an expert and am trying to liven up a dull topic with little comments about the weapons. And yes, English is one of my secondary languages. I struggle through it the best I can. You and others have probably noticed the dozens of spelling and grammer errors in these posts. I am trying! But please don't take offense to my comments. They mean nothing. It really does look like they took a piece of artillery and bolted it onto a tracked carrier. Nothing wrong with that if it works And I do not take offense to any criticisms of pointing out my mistakes. That is why I started this thread in the first place. Hopefully we can shape the Syrian side to resemble reality in at least a small way. Plese comb over my posts and post any corrections or errors or questions you might have. And yes I do live in Fairfax. Very nice town in which to live. And security means 'security' Anyways, hope everyone is getting something from this thread. Lets keep the disscussion going and I am happy to answer any questions I can.

Not to speak for BF or be rude, but this game is probably not for you. I think they are going for a realistic angle here which means that the player will spend many missions rooting out infantry armed with primative weapons. The trick will be to keep casulties to a minimum and do it within a reasonable time frame. You can create a straight up battle if you want and give Syria the best weapons they have in unrealistic quanities. But I suspect it would still be a one sided affair. You can play blue vs blue and red vs red battles and those might be fun for you and other fans of 'fair' battles. But the truth of the matter is that the a real war would be anything but fair. On oneside you have the US able to bring in massive amounts of firepower and the best of everything. On the other a Syrian side who has terrian and a defenisve war to its advantage along with the advange of being able to use asymetirc warfare. Not fair and not a walk in the park for either side. It will be destructive and bloody. If that does not sound fun, then this may not be the game for you. [ September 04, 2006, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

Oops Forgot that. Yes they have a number of them. Mostly given to special forces and airborne units. Modern ammo for them as well.

I think I have shown that the Syria does not adheer to the normal Soviet TO&E I have seen in a half dozen sources that a Syria armour batallion is 40 tanks with supporting SP ATGMS. You are right about the independent rank brigade but that means little in CM terms. Earlier by AP ammo I ment Sabot with a steel rod. So useless it might as well be AP ammo. I should have been more clear earlier By Sabot ammo earlier I meant Tungsten. Moderatly usefull but against a M1A2 front armour it will just chip the paint. If the Syrians have DU ammo then I would be totaly shocked. My understanding is that Russia themselves have very little. Germany has been looking into making future tank shells out of it but have deemed it farrrrr too expensive to do so. I think for the moment America has the inside edge on that sort of round. [ September 04, 2006, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

Syrian Artillery As promised here is some information on the guns of the Syrian army. Formation matters little in something like CM. But gun types and ammo loads I guess would. I am going to break it down into mortars, light field pieces, heavy field pieces and SP. Like Iraq Syria has an impressive array of guns and number of guns. But like Iraq it would be impressive if this was WW2 or Korea. Syria can bring in massive weight of shell on any given target and in a conventional defensive war would probably fare well. But they would have serious problems moving the guns against an air campaign. Fire against a static target would be sucessful but shifting fire to compensate for the ever fluid battlefield would present a significant problem. Fire beyond line of sight would also be a challenge since radar assisted artillery is in very short supply. Most guns would rely on a spotter with a radio and the mark one eyeball. Counterbattery fire would be almost non exsistent and US guns should be able to fire with impunity. Couterbattery fire against Syrian batteries would be swift and decisive and within minutes of opening fire and betraying their posistions Syrian guns would be engulfed in metal and flame. Not a very pretty picture is it! But in a defensive scenario and with proper time given to pre planning fire missions the Syrian player should be able to bring in a massive amount of shell within a certain window. If the US player lacks support then they would face the problem of inaccurate but heavy sustained barrages. In short Syria has lots and lots of guns and lots and lots of shells to feed those guns. But they lack quality and their lives can be counted in minutes after they open fire. It would be a race to see if they would be preforated a few dozen times by a cluster bomb or torn apart by 155mm shells. Anyways...here is what they have Mortars: Probably the most usuefull of all Syrian assests. These will be on the field of battle and are more mobile and harder to pinpoint their fire. The standerd heavy mortar is the Soviet 120mm 2B. Old and reliable they can fire up to 9km away. Ammo load for each tube seems to be around 40 shells. Syria also has a stock of the 160mm M43 mortar. Most of these would probably be in fixed locations. Ammo load is 25 shells. The medium mortar is the 82mm M37 Ammo load is 50 I found little to no evidence that Syria has gotten into the tactial mortar game of less than 82mm. Light pieces: Syria has lots and lots and lots of these. For reserve formations besides mortars the only artillery they would be given would be the obsolete 85mm D44 Only upside is that their ammo load is 90 or so shells. The backbone of Syrian artillery would be the 122mm D30. Old but still able to launch a average powered shell almost 10.5km I found evidence that Syria does have a number of RAR. These would increase range to probably ~25km but would mean little in game terms. Ammo load for a 122mm D30 is 80 rounds Next up is the 130mm M46 11km range 80 rounds per gun Heavy pieces: Next up is the stuff that puts big holes on things. The 152mm D20 Cousin of the D30 this one can fire a very destructive shell 11km Ammo per gun is 50 shells Syria has RAR for this gun as well. Then comes the king of what Syria can pound their enemies with. The 180mm S-23 Able to launch a 7 inch shell 11.5km Ammo load is 45 rounds per gun. Syria has more guns than this, but these types cover the bulk of their field pieces. They are also a good crossrange of sizes from smallest to largest. I found evidence that Syria has very small stockpiles of airburst anti armour rounds. Probably enough to model but each gun should probably only get a tiny handfull if any at all. Most of their shell are good old HE blast the earth apart types of shells. A battery is 3 guns. A batallion is 6 batteries for 18 guns. Uses mostly trucks to get around but also has MT-LBs and BTR-50PKs SP guns: Just two types of these. 2S1 Gvozdika A 122mm D30 gun bolted onto a tracked carrier. Significant quanities of these. Lack sophisticated fire control systems. I have strong evidence that Syria can use these in a direct fire role and doles out very small quanties of HEAT shells to each vehicle. 36 HE shells and 4 HEAY shells per gun. 2S3 Akatsyia 152mm D20 also bolted on a tracked carrier. 28 HE shells and 5 HEAT shells. A platoon (battery) of SP guns is 3 vehicles. A batallion is 6 platoons for 18 guns. Rocket batteries: A number of old 107mm Type63 systems still exsist mostly with reserve and militia formations. 9 rocket barrage with one 9 rocket reload. BM-21 Grad is a 122mm rocket bolted on a truck. 30 rounds BM-22 Uragan is a 220mm rocket launcher bolted onto a truck 12 rockets The only significant amount of ICM artillery I found is that Syria has a number of 220mm rockets that explode to deploy armour piercing bomblets. Uses the BM-22 to fire these rockets. 3 platforms per battery 6 batteries per batallion AT-Guns Syria still fields a number of these. Most have outdated shells so little use against tanks but can slap around a IFV prettt hard. Militia and reserve units would probsbly field the 85mm D-44 gun. Almost completly useless this gun might have some short range use against APCs. Fire control system is Korean war vintage. 20 HE shells 20 HEAT shells 5 Sabot shells 30 AP shells The 100mm BS-3 would be a little more usefull but still almost a waste of time. A massive weapon. 20 HE shells 20 HEAT shells 5 Sabot shells 20 AP shells The 100mm T-12 would be the most usefull gun Syria would field. Might be able to damage a M1A2 from the front with a close range Sabot shell. 20 HE 20 HEAT 20 Sabot I have found conflicting and questionable reports that Syria fields small numbers of the 125mm 2A45 AT gun. If true then this would give Syria a major punch against US armour. It is a giantic weapon but has a good fire control system and can punch a hole is almost anything. Would have a good chance of killing an M1A2 from the front at medium range. I am also looking for more info that the Syrian 100mm T-12 can fire ATGN missles. One part of me thinks if they have the gun then it would be common sense that they would have purchased the missles. But I want to make certain. I will keep looking. Finaly the Syrian reserves and milita would be able to field the 107mm B-11 RR Ammo would be 20HE and 40 HEAT It could damage an APC that was stupid enough to blunded past it. Otherwise useless. There you have artillery. Steve, I also have info on AA guns, SAMs, man portable SAMs and SP SAMs I am going to make sure you can use this info before I spend time posting it. Let me know. Are you still finding this stuff usefull?

And in those pictures, that BMP is not moving. They are taking a rest on it becasue it looks damn cold where they are. I slept many a night on a Marder and Leopard. They stay warm for hours after you shut them off.

I cant think of any modern army in the world that troops would ever ride a tank unless it was a dire emergency. There is no reason for it to be in the game for the sole fact that it does not happen enough to warrent its inclusion.

I know in the BW riding on the outside of a APC was a huge no-no. As a RPG or ATGM gunner you would like to see nothing better than a infantry squad riding an APC!