cmfan

Could the fact that APSFD rounds, like all KE rounds, loose a good deal of their effectiveness at extreme ranges be a factor in the AI selecting them? In other words, could the AI be choosing to use HEAT in your tests because at 2K they are indeed more effective than KE rounds? How far are the threat tanks once they are engaged by APSFD rounds? Just a thought.

I had something similar happen to me. A BMP-1 fired an ATGM at one of my M1A1s moving in the open. The shot was from the flank so I braced for the possibility of a mobility kill or even an outright knockout but luckily my M1s turret was oriented in the right direction. The tank sighted the BMP, fired a quick shot, and knocked it out. The missile promptly plunged to the ground a hundred or so meters from my tank! I was impressed. Anyway returning the issue of hull down Hummvees... I'll do some testing. If the optics can indeed be exposed while the rest of the vehicle remains hull down then I can see some usefulness being extracted from the unarmed scout Humvees. However, I still wish that they, as well as the Bradly FIST vehicle, wouldn't pop smoke and reverse out of LoS the moment they sight enemy armor. I know it probably saves them from attack, but as a result I've yet to be able to use them to call for direct artillery or CAS support on armor.

This would be nice for scout platoon HMVVS (I forget what they're called) and FIST teams mounted in unarmed vehicles.

Thanks for the saved game! Yeah, catastrophic is definitely the right word. My guys look like the keystone cops whenever I do that.

I can't verify this through a saved game file, but I swear I've had it happen. Perhaps, I've just messed up the order of my commands or assigned them incorrectly (e.g. game my embarked troops a movement order rather than my vehicle). Anyway, if you say that's how it works I'll take your word for it.

Thanks Chainsaw! I kept giving my squads pause commands to be safe - one less thing to worry about. Great write-up by the way, can't wait to try it out in a scenario.

In "Bad Moon Rising" I ended up destroying all the T-90s with only one M1A1 FEP knocked out and several damaged to varying degrees. I started movement to contact via Platoon bounding over watch until I got to the slight crest in terrain Huntarr and Dan point out. With a bit of serendipitous bit of luck this was where the T-90's began engaging me and as a result this is where I set up my firing positions. I'm sure if I had been caught before the next useful piece of terrain I would have fared much worse. I noticed that several of my M1s took some nasty main gun and ATGM hits but kept on fighting. Actually, most of my casualties resulted from TCs being caught unbuttoned. The one M1 that did get knocked out took several hits before brewing up - actually it probably died because I was negligent about its cover and I kept tasking it to engage enemy tanks despite mounting damage. It eventually brewed up but at least my driver got out. The T-90's appeared to be able to handle some punishment too, but not nearly as much as the M1A1s, and as others have pointed out, once they took a penetrating hit they lit up pretty fast. I dispatched very few survivors once I began moving to the objective.

Doh! The link on your file expired Chainsaw. One question. I'm new to the game I sometimes still have trouble coordinating my troop dismounts. Do you use a pause on a squad's initial dismount movement command so that they don't jump off the their Stryker before it even begins moving to assault?

Hello, not to derail the discussion too much, but it was brought up by Steve - could we get a statement on what the six levels of LoS actually are? I think for infantry prone, kneeling and standing has been mentioned, but what are they for vehicles? Are these mapped to any particular view levels while in game? Is LoF mapped to the same points?

To add to Big Poppa Pump's comments: I've tried this with Bradleys as well. 1) Move/Hunt to firing position. 2) Pause 15 seconds 3) Reverse They will engage visible targets using that series of commands, but unfortunately never with TOWs. So if they spot an MBT they'll blaze away at it with their 25mm cannons giving away their positions without ever firing that crucial first ATGM shot from surprise. Do I need a longer pause command to accommodate target acquisition and missile flight time?

I don't suppose the reload time for the Javelin is under a minute. I could then maybe use a pause command long enough that allowed them to fire, reload and then move. I'll give it a try and see if it works... The Javeline system is an awesome weapon in the game, I'm just a little disappointing that I can't seem to get one of its best real world survivability features to work. I really hope Bradleys aren't bugged. I'm going to do a couple of tests when I get the chance but its really annoying getting my guys roasted because they won't use their main tank killing weapon. So far I've actually only scored kills employing TOW missiles using the Marine AT LAV. Thanks for the info on hull down and LOS behavior guys! I think this will go a long way towards improving my game.

Hello everyone, I've recently started playing CMSF (along with the Marine expansion) and while I'm having a lot of fun I'm having some trouble making the transition from CM1 principally, I think, due to ATGMs. I think I have a rough sense of how to use them at a tactical level, but I'm not sure if I understand how the game models the mechanics of their employment. I've been doing searches on this board and while I've found some helpful tips I still have a couple of questions I'm hoping game veterans can help me with. 1. I've been trying to "scoot and shoot" with my Bradleys but nearly every time they get in a firing position and spot a tank they immediately pop smoke and back up*. I've tried including a delay command at the firing point (15 seconds) but then they usually just sit there without engaging or worse, begin firing their 25mm cannons rather than their TOWs - which usually results in the enemy spotting them and killing them. 2. In real life one the advantages of the Javelin system is that its fire and forget. However in the game my Javelin tank hunter teams always fire their missile, stay in position and then proceed to get plastered by return fire from any surviving enemy armor or infantry until the one minute action phase is over. Is there a way to have them fire and then immediately move while in WEGO mode? Perhaps through the use of a pause command? 3. These two questions are related to, but not limited to the effective employment of ATGMs. A) Are hull down positions WYSIWYG?. B)From what point is LOS determined on vehicles such as Bradlys? Their optics? The middle of the turret or even, when the TC is unbuttoned, the TC himself? *Actually this is a general problem I have with the Bradly FIST vehicle and other vehicles designed to spot artillery or call for CAS. Regardless of whether or not I have a hull down position the Bradly FIST will always pop smoke and back up at the first sight of enemy armor - even at ranges close to 2K. This makes me wonder if I shouldn't just park this vehicle in an out of the way place for any scenario that doesn't use an extremely large map - assuming this behavior changes if the Bradly knows its outside the range of a targets weapon systems.

When we use to fire the old 4.2 inch mortar at low charge you could easily spot the round flying through the air upto a good distance.

very interesting reading material. thanks athkatla

Yeah, nothing is impervious to artillery/mortar HE except maybe for concrete bunkers.

I'd be partial to a game that represented modern weapon systems, but I can also see several pitfalls in choosing this design option... Modeling units would not be a problem, or for that matter dealing with the extended range, lethality, etc of modern weapons. However I'm sure there would be fairly heated debates over different units' real world capabilities -- e.g. exactly how effective is an M1A1 tank's armor against a modern ATG? I know people still argue over the employment and lethality of WII weapons and units, but at least in this instance there are numerous historical, public references to consult.

Hmmm... I guess you do learn something new everyday. I suppose I don't really doubt the veracity of the medal of honor write up -- but still, there's something strange about it. "he seized an enemy mortar dud and threw it back among the charging Japs, killing several as it burst" -- why throw a dud? Duds aren't exactly safe, they sometimes explode unexpectedly, but you can't count on them to do so either. "his piece" -- slightly unmilitary like slang Apart from these items I noticed that he was throwing rounds from a "knee mortar". This type of mortar used a 45mm round I believe -- might have to check on that. It did not have a bipod and its rather small baseplate was integrated into the tube. The name "knee mortar" is a misnomer as placing it on your knee to fire it would result in a broken leg. It required the operator to pull a langyard attached to the firing pin in order to fire a round. ---- "I'd guess the fact that the mortar is being armed on a rock would mean the propellant would "harmlessly" discharge outwards in all directions rather than forcing a mortar round out a tube." True, but the "propellant" is an expanding, burning, hot gas. If you ignite it while holding the round, it will likely burn your hand pretty badly. One thing I forgot to mention is that in all the mortar rounds I've handled, the striking cap has been slightly recessed into the base. I suppose this *might* prevent the ignition charge from going of if you slamed it against a rock or baseplate, but you're takinga big gamble. I suppose in combat if your desperate its worth the chance. Still... I stand by my claim that what we saw in SPR was somewhat of a stretch.

I'm highly skeptical of that scene in "Saving Private Ryan". All mortar rounds I know have a built in amount of propellent inside the base (the narrow tube like area from which the fins protrude). Depending on the round this propellent can be the equivalent of a full charge (60mm mortars) or simply a shotgun shell's worth of powder (4.2 inch mortar I believe). When a mortar is dropped down the tube it slides down until its firing cap, located at its very base, strikes the mortars firing pin. When this happens the built in propellent is ignited. This in turn ignites any additional charges attached. Having pointed this out, it goes without saying that removing a mortar round's safety pin and then proceeding to slam its base against the ground, particularly while holding it with your hand, is probably a bad idea. Its also important to remember that removing the safety pin/lock off a mortar is not the only step necessary to arm its fuze. The round has to usually spin a few times or be subject to sudden jolt before the fuze goes active. Simply throwing a round is unlikely to set it off even if its safety has been removed. I imagine this is why the writers in SPR might have had the actors hitting the rounds against the base plate. They simply forgot or ignored the fact that this would have also likely ignited the base propellant. Lastly, a 60mm mortar has the explosive power of several hand granades. I know they were standing in what looked like a crater, but I still doubt that they would have been able to throw the rounds far enough not to be injured by their explosion. Still... I do have to admit my knowledge of mortars and their ammunition is limited to what is currently in the U.S. inventory. Perhaps the rounds being modeled in the film were of a variety particular to that time period -- and particularly unsafe at that.

Well, I'd say visually spotting a mortar crew doing their thing depends on how good that crew is and what type of mortar your talking about. A 60mm mortar has the shortest range, so its usually employed closer to the enemy than other mortars. However the 60mm also has the smallest fire signature and can be easily moved. Crews can essentially do a "shoot and scoot". Run out, setup the mortar in a couple of seconds, fire off a few rounds and then displace. The same applies to other mortars to a lesser extent. Also remember that even an 81mm mortar has a range of several kilometers. A crew doesn't need to be close to the front lines to be effective. Add to that the fact that you can fire a mortar from behind a building, hill or in a trench...and crews can camouflauge their postion, its down right hard to visually spot a good mortar team doing their thing. One factor you do have to watch out for though is counter battery radar -- don't think this existed during WWII. Since the mortar round has such a high ballistic parabola and is relatively slow its fairly easy for counter battery radar to figure out the firing point of rounds flying through the air. That's were the portability of mortars comes in handy. Fire a couple of fire missions and then scoot to a new position.

Wow, there are quite a few people that have been around mortars on this board! Not much to add except that most mortars are fairly easy to transport. A 60mm can easily be carried and employed by a crew of 3 (or less depending on the system). The 81mm variety is also somewhat man portable -- though your not going anywhere very fast. A single person can even cary the tube. Barring that, an entire gun system could easily be carried in a pickup truck or even passenger car. Compared to the old 4.2 inch mortars, the new 120mm mortars are realtively light -- though not generally considered man portable. I'd say two people could carry the barrel for short distances if they had to. Same for the base plate. I know I've seen footage of Rangers using a special cart to lug one around. Its actually not very surprising that insurgents in Iraq are able to move and deploy them so quickly. It's what most mortars are designed for. -- Can't say I've been on the receiving end of mortar fire, but I've met people who say you don't hear much until they hit. I have been under the flight path of 155 artillery (again, thankfully not at its impact point). Sounded a little like a fast moving jet flying overhead.

What YankeeDog said To add a little to it: Yes, mortar rounds have what are called charges attached to their base. Most look like dohnuts wraped around the base of the round. Others, like on rounds for the 4.2 mortar look like Kraft cheese slices. Range on a mortar can be adjusted through either adding or removing charges, or by adjusting elevation on the bipod. Different mortars tend use one of these methods more than the other. When you drop a round in a mortar it slides down the tube until it reaches the tube's firing pin. The pin hits a striker in the base of the round igniting a built in charge , which in turn ignites any additionaly charges attached. Aiming-- Its all a combination of ballistics and geometry. First off... All mortars can technically be aimed directly by the gunner (e.g. the gunner directly sights the target). However, this method will probably get you killed as not many enemy forces enjoy having mortars fired at them. What most mortar squads will do is find themselves a nice firing point outside of enemy observation... in a land depression, behind some woods or a hill. Remember mortars are high-angle weapons so you can fire them over obstructions. The mortar goes into "action" at the firing point (meaning it gets setup) facing the general direction of fire. It is then more precisely aimed using an aiming circle, a device very similar to land surveyors level with a precision compass built in. 60mm usually forgoe this. Once an initial direction of fire is established aiming stakes are deployed. These are used as stationary reference points from which to make aiming changes. All this happens, depending on the size of the mortar, from under half a minute to a couple of minutes. As YankeeDog notes different caliber mortars vary in operation, but this is the general method of aiming them. jthomas -- 1/67ar 2AD (before it became the 4th ID).

Hey Krautman, I was a mortar man in an armored battalion in the U.S. army a few years ago. I think I've fired every type of mortar currently in the inventory of the U.S. army (60mm, 81mm, 4.2 inch and 120mm). I think the descriptions everyone has given you so far are fairly accurate. To be a little more specific, a mortar usually consists of three basic elements: the gun tube - this is the part of the mortar system which actually fires the shells. Its muzzle loaded, usually smoothbore (except, for example, the 4.2 inch mortar) and has a firing pin at the bottom which sets off the propellent charge on the shell. the bipod assemply - resembles, somewhat loosely I suppose, a camera tripod with two legs. The bipod assembly attaches to the gun tube proping it up. It usually has shock absorvers and it is the element of the mortar system that is used to adjust the mortars aim (traverse, elevation, etc.) the base plate - is a more or less a flat metal plate into which the base of the gun tube fits. jthomas is completely right when he states that "plop" you hear in movies and even cm is bs. Even the relatively small 60mm mortar gives off a very healthy boom when fired. To me the 4.2 inch and 120mm mortars always had a metallic ring to them when we fired them. jthomas -- what unit did you server in? when I saw your post I got flash backs to my platoon's own medic. Our platoon sergeant usually made him hang out over by the FDCs when we are at ranges, but once in a while we snuck him over to a gun and let him drop a round or two