John C

Dave - I too have decided to refrain from participating in the threads that touch on political and personal topics because I believe we have gone as far as we can in representing our various opinions and additional comments would likely be more apt to incite rather than enlighten. I am thankful though that even in disagreement, the discussions remained civil. Please remember that there are a myriad of discussions here about this great game and I hope that you will quickly rejoin us in those discussions as your experienced point of view will be missed for the duration of your absence.

I am no expert on the Crusades, but most sources I have seen suggest the practices were more than merely "questionable motives". We need not debate the extent of the horrors of the crusade. If I make a mistake in over-emphasizing the crimes committed then at least allow me to ensure they are not subsequently under-emphasized through your response. Generally though, your points are valid Major Spinello. There can be no EXACT parallel though I believe my examples are reasonably close. Regardless, history is still replete with examples of evil and deplorable behavior and I find it somewhat odd that so many feel compelled to remove the symbols of this one regime while completely ignoring all others. But whether we are discussing just this one symbol or every unsavory symbol of the past, I personally do not believe the whitewashing of history accomplishes anything useful. I understand the desire to remove the swastika from the political arena and to prevent skinheads from marching through the streets recruiting the disaffected and the ignorant into their venomous cults. But to express morale outrage at others wishing to include the swastika in a game that attempts to simulate the grand strategy of WWII in Europe seems less reasonable to me. I wish for my game to include the historically accurate symbols and I do not believe that makes me any less virtuous than others who feel differently. Anyway, I believe I have made my point as clearly as I can and it would serve no purpose to discuss this topic further. While we did not all agree, I thank everyone who participated for keeping the discussion civil.

Dave - I respect that you are offended by the acts of the Nazis. I will certainly not defend them or their policies. Their actions were horribly evil. But history is replete with atrocities. The crusades were similarly an attempt at genocide. Not only do people not protest the use of the Christian Cross in games, but I am aware of no one objecting to Crusader Kings - a game specifically about religious persecution and murder. Joseph Stalin was a murderous tyrant, yet I do not see any outrage at the use of the Soviet flag. Why not? The confederacy fought to keep an entire race of people enslaved. Yet American Civil war games routinely use their flag without protest. Does that bother you at all? Your sister-in-law may have been Jewish, but surely that does not mean that you only object to the senseless murder of people who are like you and your family. Would your wife even recognize the flag of Sudan that flew over the crimes at Darfur? If you were playing Sim-UN instead of SC2 would she insist you contact the game's maker to have Sundan's flag modified? There is much evil in the world - both past and present. The vilification of one symbol in the universe of evil acts does not grant moral superiority. If you wish to play without a swastika in your game, I support your right to do so. But please do not jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am somehow morally bankrupt because I choose to do otherwise.

Well, as I posted in another thread, I do not see a problem with having swasticas in the game. I am the first to admit that the Nazi party was evil but that symbol is a part of the history of the nation and the era. I believe in using the confederate flag in American Civil War games even though the south supported and defended the institution of slavery. I believe in using the soviet flag in games despite the atrocities committed by Stalin. And likewise, I believe in using the historical German flag even though I do not support or condone the racial policies of the Nazi party. The modern German government does not allow the swastica to be used for any purpose and therefore companies must use fictitious symbols in order to sell in that country. I therefore understand why the game companies change the symbols. But I do not live in Germany and I prefer the historical flags even though I do not agree with many of the policies that they historically represented. I have not seen blantant racist comments by Chris G. That is not to say that comments were not made, but I have not seen them. I am all for censoring blatantly offensive statements on boards such as this. I am all for removing disruptive elements. But I have not yet seen evidence of any of that. Again, he may have made such comments, but I have not seen anything that rises to that level. And while I do support enforcement of rules of conduct, I hope that any such actions are predicated on real offenses.

Thanks JJ, but I only see one post by Chris G in that thread and it questions whether one witness changed his story. [i'll confess, I haven't followed Elie's story at all] I think others successfully point out that the discrepency could be the difference between the death and the disposal of the body. But I do not see any wild claims about the holocaust not existing at all or any statements that are grossly offensive. Were other statements deleted or is that one statement the basis of the case against him? If that is all he said, then I would say it might be a little unsympathetic, but it certainly doesn't strike me as sufficiently offensive to justify the recommendations of this thread.

I personally haven't seen anything from him that would warrent such a stern rebuke but I have not been paying strict attention to such things. Were the most offensive comments deleted? Or are there quotes or links available for review?

Education, not censorship, is the key. Should all confederate flags be removed from American Civil War games because some find that flag to be offensive? Should the American flag be removed from all games because some find the current leadership of that nation to be misguided? Should the Soviet flag be removed because of the attrocities committed by that "evil empire" and the ultimate failure of their system? Nazi flags are removed from games because the German government does not permit that symbol and any company wishing to do business in Germany must use an alternate. I understand the business reason to change the flag. But I do not understand the apparent hysteria on this board. The Nazi party was evil. The swatica was their symbol. But history is history and that is the flag and the symbol under which Germany fought in WWII. Wanting a historically accurate game is not evil. It does not indicate support for the Nazi party or their ideas. It is simply a recognition of what actually was. And a witch hunt against even partial symbols of a currupt regime is, in my humble opinion, silly and misguided. You do not need to agree with it, but that is my opinion on the matter.

*old comment removed - no longer relevant * [ June 10, 2006, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

No one has ever accused me of being an artist, but I went ahead and created a historical flag mod since there doesn't otherwise seem to be one. LINK FOR UPDATED ZIP FILE (3.6MB) (Updated with new URL 10/27/07) [ October 27, 2007, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

Nice suggestions Kuni. The more flexible the engine, the more options for creating great scenarios. The applications for 3 and 4 are pretty limited and may have diffulty reaching the top of the list, but 1 and 2 have lots of potential uses and would be great addtions to the game.

Nice suggestions Kuni. The more flexible the engine, the more options for creating great scenarios. The applications for 3 and 4 are pretty limited and may have diffulty reaching the top of the list, but 1 and 2 have lots of potential uses and would be great addtions to the game.

Thanks for the explanation Hubert. So, it sounds like there is no way to force a distinction between the "empty" tiles and have it use the ones specified by the editor? All I was trying to do is mark the convoy routes on the map. By having multiple empty sea tiles, I was putting "dots" on a few of them to mark convoy routes, but they are always randomized as you suggest. I suppose I can use or modify the "arrow" sea tiles as those are maintained. Any other (better) suggestion for accomplish the same thing? I'm not sure how embedded the randomization function is, but I would recommend putting the random patterns in the scenarios themselves and not have the game randomize it on-the-fly. I can envision several instances where a modder might want to insert a special graphic on a tile that doesn't change its function, but just designates something. For example, a more tactical game might wish to show small towns that do not impact game play but that mark a location just for historical reference purposes. At sea, someone using the engine for a ACW game might want to designate a difference between deep and shallow water and use house rules to designate which boat types were allowed to go into deep water. I don't think you lose anything by applying the randomization to the scenario files and I can see a lot of opportunity to provide additional flexibility.

Speaking of upgrades, this is a bit off-topic, but why do builds assume you want to build the lowest tech level instead of assuming you want to build the highest that you are able to afford? It seems a bit silly to have to indicate for each individual unit purchased that I want my new infantry to be equiped with modern weapons.

Yes. As you say, it runs the entire script check. I then can exit and return to see the old map or can exit and play the game and I see the unedited map. My issue might have something to do with the fact that I am attempting to edit ocean hexes. At the bottom of the tile bmps, there are several ocean hexes that appear exactly the same. I edited them to appear different thinking they likely were just additional "placeholders" and then I was surprised to see that the ocean isn't one of them, but rather is a quilt of all of them. I can edit the map to use the same ocean tile for all full ocean squares yet it isn't saving any of my changes.

For some reason, I am unable to save map changes when I edit a scernario. Within the editor, I can change the map but when I "save" it does not save the map changes. Is there something obvious I am missing here? Thanks.

It sounds as though you shouldn't use such a mod based on your beliefs. Request still stands though. When someone creates the inevitable mod, please post a link for the rest of us. [ May 25, 2006, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

DD with a 3 line post? The world truly has gone mad!

I hope we can avoid the political discussion, but when someone completes a historical flag mod, please post a link. Thanks. EDIT: I went ahead and did the mod. DOWNLOAD LINK [ May 27, 2006, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

I just find the Sub/ASW "find and wack the mole" sub-game to be a bit dull. Since the AI is capable of playing both sides, I wish I could check a box somewhere and have the computer move all naval forces (other than transports & amphib transports) on my behalf that have not otherwise been moved during the turn. That way, I can ignore the Navy and have the AI deal with it - or could move what I wanted and let the computer address whatever I chose to ignore.

Has anyone made a mod of the main map to show convoy routes?

Replayability is important. But a random tech system shouldn't be the basis of replayability, strategy should. Does Germany do sealion? Put more into Africa? Build subs to attack convoys? Pressure Spain to join the Axis and attack Gibralter? Skip the Baltics and start Barbarossa earlier? Grab Turkey and then attack Russia through the caucasus? And the allies? Attack North Africa? Invade Sicily? Go into mainland Italy? Greece? Invade France immediately? Bomb and wear down the economy? Those are the strategic alternatives. That is what provides replayability. Not... gee, I got lucky and got higher tank tech in this game - wooot! this changes everything! The proposal does have a degree of randomness. You can even tweak the ranges of the progress each turn. It just eliminates the potential for the outliers. How can that be a bad thing? As for changing the entire system, it really isn't a major change. The UI and concepts stay entirely in place. The only difference is the math behind the scenes and the need to track one additional variable per major. I really don't see that as an enormous programming change. And as to balance, JD2 already did most of the math that would allow things to be averaged out to what they are now. Beyond that, it can be tweaked with all the other upcoming changes that will impact balance. Or more to the point, balance isn't yet done. I think it is a good system. But as the title of this thread says, let's make it an optional config choice. We don't even need it in the UI, just make a customization flag in a file so we can try it. It isn't a massive change, so I'd like to see it added so that those who wish can use it and then we can all see how it does or doesn't work. All that said, the tech system as-is is still a whole lot better than GGWaW and most of the other WWII games out there. Perhaps this isn't the first thing that needs to be done, but that doesn't change the fact that it really is a good idea.

A bit of randomness is a good thing. When you invest heavily in JD2's system, you might get results in two months, or 4 months or perhaps even 6 months because progress takes random steps forward. That's a bit of randomness. But when you are just waiting to hit the lottery on a small percentage chance then you might get something tomorrow, or perhaps next year, or you might not ever get results. That is more than a bit of randomness. At that point, the dice become a primary deciding factor and you might as well just play yahtzee. P.S. - Under JD2's system, having L5 tank by 1942 can be prevented since you can set the "costs" and progress accordingly to ensure proper progress based on investment. There is a measured amount of progress being made each turn. Under the current system, it is actually possible for a very lucky person to max tanks out in 1940. Again, in my mind at least, his proposal is better than the current system. [ May 23, 2006, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

I really like your system JD2. A strategy game should rely mostly on strategy and your system seems to do just that. The only addition I might suggest is that subsequent chits should cost more so that it is more difficult to boost technologies overly quickly. Each Chit might cost 15% more than the previous one invested in the same tech. So it might cost 100 MPP for the first, then 115 for the second, 132 for the third and so on.

I was surprised that when the Allies invaded and liberated France, that liberation did not include Vichy. I then had to declare war and invade to unite the country. Stranger still, when I took Marsailles the capital relocated to Africa. In my mind if the Allies recapture Paris and liberate France, Vichy should unite even if it was never attacked.