Statisoris
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Posts posted by Statisoris
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I am not sure how many SS still in use in 1944. In 1942 the SmE (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern) seems to have substituted the SS almost completely in order to make economies on lead. In 1944 the SmE Lg (Lang) was introduced which reduced the amount of lead required to nil, but had similar ballistics than the SS.
Maybe you have some data on the SmE and SmE Lg.
Hmm, don't seem to have anything other than basic information on that round. I have contacted a reliable source of mine who deals in World War 2 arms and ammunition. I will see what he says about the SmE (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern) "Pointed bullet with iron core" penetration and put up a post when he gets back to me.
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You don't need LOS to the TRP. Say you want to call a circular fire mission, as long as the TRP is 50m from the centre of the target the TRP will have an effect. You can see this when looking at the details of the fire mission. TRP don't change any "rules" about the fire mission regarding LOS, they only enhance the accuracy and I believe also eliminates the need for spotting rounds.
The affects of TRP's on artillery and air support are as follows
1) No LOS required to plot an artillery and/or air support mission. (Only one "mission plot point" needs to be within the TRP area. So you can plot a line with one end in the TRP area and one end out of the TRP area to gain the TRP effects. !NOTE! If you want TRP effects, the first plotted point MUST be within TRP area. If you plot the 1st "mission point" out of TRP area and then plot 2nd point within TRP area, there will be NO TRP effects (does not apply to "Point" type missions)
2) Correct Stikkypixie, TRPs eliminate spotting rounds. !NOTE! there is a drawback to this. You cannot adjust fire until the mission is firing full force. This can be bad if you do not have artillery to waste, as you have to wait for the mission to adjust while firing at a standard rate, not just spotting rate.
3) Call in time for all missions based on TRPs are shorter. Experience/Leadership rating for spotter is still a factor, longer for lower experience/lower leadership ratings.
4) Correct Stikkypixie, TRPs enhance the accuracy of indirect as well as direct fire.
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Back to clear confusion. How could you see troops appear if you don't have los to the target area? If you play low difficulty with enemy troops always on I guess that is possible.
Artillery and air support missions can be plotted on TRP areas at any time during the game WITHOUT LOS to the TRP target spot. So for example you can order a mission deep into some thick forest with no LOS as long as you are firing unto thine TRP.
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The "Patrone SmK" (Spitz mit Kern) as the 7.92AP in the game was officially called had a V0 of 785 m/s and could penetrate 12mm of steel - although I have not found (yet) at which distance.
The SmK (Spitzgeschoss mit Kern = "pointed bullet with core") could penetrate 12-13mm at a distance of 100m.
One can see that the AP round would be more effective, at least against the two lighter US vehicles below vs the the standard German round which doesn't even look like it would penetrate.
M2 and M3 Halftrack Armor
6.4-13mm
M8 Greyhound Armor
Hull Front, Upper
16 mm, 5/8", 0.625"@0°4
Hull Front, Lower
19 mm, 0.75"
Hull Sides, Upper
9 mm, 3/8", 0.375"@0°4
Hull Sides, Lower
9 mm, 3/8"
Hull Rear
9 mm, 3/8", 0.375"@0°4
Hull Top
6 mm, 0.25"
Hull Bottom
3 mm, 1/8-1/4"
Turret Front
19 mm, 0.75", 0.875"@0°4
Turret Sides
19 mm, 0.75", 0.75"@0°4
Turret Rear
19 mm, 0.75"
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And do you know what was the steel penetration of the regular 7.92?
Here are some penetration numbers for the standard 7.9sS (schweres Spitzgeschoss) "heavy pointed bullet".
10mm of iron at 300m
7mm of iron at 550m
5mm of steel at 100m
3mm of steel at 600m.
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Off the top of my head. Apologies for errors:
7.92 = regular 7.92mm ball ammo. Good for many German weapons like MG34/42, k98.
7.92 AP = Armor piercing 7.92mm round typically carried by vehicles, but cross-compatible with standard 7.92mm ammo. Theoretically, 7.92mm AP ammo should be somewhat better at penetrating light armor than standard ball ammo.
7.92K = 7.92mm "Kurz" ammo (Kurz means "Short" in German). This is the ammo for the Stg44. This ammo is not cross-compatible with regular 7.92mm ammo; while the bullet is the same, the cartridge case is shorter and therefore the chambering is different.
Edit to add: Never encountered a vehicle carrying 7.92K ammo in-game myself, though this doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't exist. It is worth noting that the Stg44 was pretty rare in Normandy, and given the Germans' general supply problems in the theatre, ammo for it may well have been scarce.
7.92k can be found in German Bunker stashes. This is like the 20th iteration of this exact same thread btw.
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TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas.
TRP's affect a circular area within a radius of 50 meters from TRP center point.
TRP's DO affect direct fire if there is LOS to the circular area. They will increase the accuracy of fire of any unit into that circular area.
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Phil Culliton (one of the developers) made some posts about a week ago and basically said the whole team is very busy. No news on modules anywhere though.
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Coolness, thanks for the info RockinHarry
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From CMx1 I had always thought this was meant to be more an attempt to reflect bore sighting a location and have used it with the same function in mind in CMBN. A handheld AT weapon though seems a little funky to be using this, but if it works I'll have to keep it in mind.
I wonder if handheld AT troops really measured out ranges like this in real life while setting up ambushes. I don't see why they wouldnt, just never heard of anyone doing it before for handheld AT systems.
On the otherhand, I have heard a voiced account (on a documentary) from a German panther tank commander that they did indeed fire rounds into trees/ground/objects in order to get accurate ranges for setting up defensive positions and ambushes.
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Just found this on page 82 also. Pretty much says the same thing but more directly.
"Note: A special situation is the targetting of an enemy unit
near a TRP (Target Reference Point). In CM:BN, these
double-function not only for artillery support fire, but
also as “ambush markers”. Soldiers targetting an enemy
unit near a friendly TRP are much better at estimating
the range correctly."
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Questions have been raised about this more than once...
Michael
Oh ok, I wonder if it would be worth PMing a dev over. I assume that if it is in the manual then it is true, however, from what I remember there are things in the manual that did not make it into the game.
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I just saw something in the manual regarding TRP's that I had no idea was in CMBN.
This snippet is from page 87 of the CMBN manual and is the Example paragraph for the HIDE command.
"Example - we hide a German Panzerschreck team to let the first few vehicles
and US infantry pass by before un-hiding and launching a grenade at the
side of an enemy tank. This ambush tactic is especially effective if used in
conjunction with a friendly Target Reference Point (TRP), as this increases
the firing unit’s accuracy for the first shot."
In the last sentence, the manual basically states that TRPs increase all local unit's accuracy and does not just affect Artillery!
I remember a similar feature from CMx1, but I had no idea it was in CMBN.
What do you all think about this?
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Fair point, wrt "purchasing efficiency". Given the "initiative disadvantage" of being the defender, and the associated greater likelihood of not being able to keep your HQs out of danger, would you say the points are worth it for a defender?
Yes, I would say they are hypothetically more worth it for a defender. The reason I say hypothetically, is that your HQs are definitely at more risk like you stated, however, the defender starts with 1230 less points in a (Attack/Medium) Quick Battle. Due to this large 38.7% point disparity, I would tend to spend all spare point on units that would directly increase firepower.
In defensive situations, I do end up eventually losing Company HQ and Battalion HQ units in the fight, but this is usually after my main defensive force under command of the Company HQ in question has already been technically beaten.
In the end I would say it depends on the situation and map type. Under some situations, I feel it would be worth buying your XO and Battalion HQ support teams. One of these situations might be if you have a company of infantry that you expect will be able to withdraw from their initial positions after taking an initial beating. In this case, the Company HQ might be at more risk from fresh attacking forces in the initial assault and the company XO might be needed to take over command of the remaining defensive forces after falling back. You would need to make sure and keep your XO teams safe in this situation or they are not serving their purpose though.
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...
US tank (M10?) in camo driving towards camera amidst wrecks of german vehicles
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I think that is an M8 HMC (75mm) in that one.
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Having XO units 'improves overall C&C' in the sense that when your Btn/Coy CO gets nailed your XO unit will take over and maintain C&C.
I have never lost a Company Commander or Battalion Commander while being the attacker. I just try and keep them in a safe but useful position that maintains decent command and control links. The extra 17 points for a US (Veteran/Normal) Company XO could be spent on upgrading something much more useful like an Arty unit to higher experience for faster fire times, an armored unit to higher experience or you could add +1 leadership skill to 1-4 units for those 17 points.
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I did several tests using various types of artillery and have found that 60mm mortars work the best (against wooden bunkers, not concrete). Not only have I found them to work well in my testing, but in my latest PBEM game my wooden bunker was taken out by ONE 60mm mortar shell being direct fired. The very first shot that was fired was a direct hit, killing everyone inside.
The larger artillery works too, but since it's not as pinpoint precise as the 60mm stuff it takes more shells and luck. Even large naval guns have a hard time taking these out because the shells often fall too far away to do damage (though they do pin/panic the guys inside).
I think it is strange that a WWII 60mm mortar shell can penetrate a wood log bunker when even modern US M224 60mm shells cannot penetrate most rooftops even with delay fuse in real life. Maybe the shell went through a gap in the logs :-/
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Which quick battle map? like "Large Rough (bocage) QB-127"
1900 points will be about 2 companies worth of infantry (Regular experience / Normal motivation) with extra support units and artillery tacked on or either two understrength companies of (Veteran experience / High motivation) with added artillery. I usually go with (Veteran Normal or Veteran High) for attacker stats.
Make sure you keep all of your higher command units on map, it will help with morale and overall better C2. So for 2 companies you will have your Battalion HQ and two Company HQ units on map to help out.
Here is a decent and safe setup (mostly veteran units, some regular, remove all jeeps/trucks)
-1st Battalion HQ (No HQ Support Team to save points) [uS Infantry Battalion]
--A Company HQ (No XO unit to save points)
---1st Platoon HQ
----1st Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----2nd Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----3rd Squad (Bazooka or Not to save points for other units)
---2nd Platoon HQ
----1st Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----2nd Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----3rd Squad (Bazooka or Not to save points for other units)
---4th Platoon HQ
----60mm Mortar x 3 (No Jeeps, 60mm mortars are deadly in direct fire)
----MMG x 2 (Can reduce to 1 to save points for other units)
--B Company HQ (No XO unit to save points)
---1st Platoon HQ
----1st Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----2nd Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----3rd Squad (Bazooka or Not to save points for other units)
---2nd Platoon HQ
----1st Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----2nd Squad (No Bazooka if infantry only battle)
----3rd Squad (Bazooka or Not to save points for other units)
---4th Platoon HQ
----60mm Mortar x 3 (No Jeeps)
----MMG x 2 (Can reduce to 1 to save points for other units)
Artillery
81mm Mortars (On map is cheaper, short call in time, can direct fire but has less ammo vs off map)
105mm Howitzer (These are expensive but powerful, buy more 81mm if you don't want to spend points on this)
Extras
If you have points left over,
I would buy one or two scout teams and attach them to two different infantry platoons.
It would also be very handy to have at least one breach team with more demo charges if bocage is on the map.
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This isn't related but there is another fortification problem with trenches. They don't hold their assigned facing after setup phase is done. They flip back 90 degrees to default if there is a single trench.
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Can you show that even a single one Pz.gr 40 was fired in anger in 1944? In CMBB/CMAK the Tungsten round is available in 1943 but very rarely shows up, but in 1944 the choice disappears because it no longer was in use. If you can prove otherwise, great, let's see the evidence. Otherwise I would trust BFC on this one.
As for the US ammo question I don't know. The only thing I recall is that canister was very seldom used in the European theater, compared to PTO. Maybe it's because the Japanese didn't have Panzerfausts that could hurt your tank at the ranges where canister fire was the most effective...
I did some research on canister rounds a couple months back and found that the 37mm Stuart/M8 canister shot was used regularly in Normandy by some units. I could not find any info on 75mm canister. I do not have my sources at the moment but I recall that one source stated that in one unit, Stuart light tanks had ~70% canister shot loadouts.
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What program are you using for illustrating the map? Looks a lot better than what one can do with Infranview.
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I read somewhere that having wounded guys sitting around hurts the morale of their unit. When they are treated, their morale improves. (have not tested, but makes sense). Like you said, scoring is a big factor for me. I usually can not afford to give buddy aid as defender since you are usually so outnumbered and on the run, but as attacker, I try to clean up the battlefield of wounded. It really keeps the KIA numbers down by turning them into WIAs.
Also, I have found buddy aid very useful for picking up important weapons like the MG-42 LMG, BAR, AT weapons, however, I hate it when a soldier picks up a new weapon, but only picks up like 20 rounds of ammunition for it. The new weapon is pretty useless if they don't pick up enough ammo for it.
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Rocky is bad vs artillery though. Twice the shrapnel gets thrown up through rock frags when something hits.
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There are some bugs with splitting teams. On many occasions I have split up German squads in many ways and wierd things happen with the AT stuff. I have had a four man team split off, armed with nothing but Kar98s (no Panzerfausts either) and their team title will be "Panzerschreck". I have also manually split off AT Panzerschreck teams and their team title will just be "A, B, C team". I think team splitting still needs work.
Although it is fun to screw around with your PBEM opponent, making him think you have a Panzershreck team comming for his tank(s) when in fact it's just four guys with Kar98s :-)
7.92mm German ammo
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
No luck, my source does not have any historical penetration data on the SmE (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern) "Pointed bullet with iron core". :-(
He did state that "it was a bit more penetrative vs the sS" but he does not have actual figures in milimeters.
So we could probably assume that it was somewhere in between the sS and the SmK. Maybe anywhere from 6mm-11mm at 100meters.
If anyone has real number on the SmE please post.