Mr. Tittles

http://www.europa.com/~telscope/mil`ger#.txt A good list of German 1944 optics. Tank sights, rangefinders, binos, etc 1029 Scherenfernrohr (Em) SF (Em) 1030 Scherenfernrohr 14 Z SF 14 Z 1031 Scherenfernrohr 14 Z mit Gitterplatte SF 14 m Gi 1032 Scherenfernrohr 14 Z mit Gitterplatte (mot einheiten) SF 14 m Gi (mot E)

SF as rangefinders; No conclusive proof has been shown I will admit. The only thing that is certain is that they ARE rangefinders. Anectdotal evidence (StuG commanders adjusting them with a level) and long range shots (4Km by a Hornet on one case), shows that long ranges are being determined accurately. I have reviewed most of my photographic sources and StuGs definetly had them as standard items. The fact that StuGs are artillerymen (usually) and the use of SF by arty units and FO WOULD know how to measure range makes me lean towards actual range measurement with them. There seems to be evidence of a smaller size and a larger size also. A hand held model 6 x 30 and the larger 'tripod' type. As far as a small percentage of people being able to use them, the US Army found that 70 % of existing trained gunners could use them. While they did not like this, it does show that it was not a minority.

http://www.deutscheoptik.com/rangefinderinstruction.htm This is data for a coincidence type rangefinder. It is very similar to the ones used by German lt. flak and was found in a Tiger tank in North Afrika.

Rexford Do you use the gun height in your battlesight calcs? The Panther and Tiger I and II all had a gun that was about 2 meters off the ground to begin with. StuGs and Jagdpanzer had lower guns and battlesight methods would work better with them.

Generally, the HE effect (real blast if you will) is an inverse cube, 1/x^3 with X being distance, and the effect of fragmentation being an inverse square, 1/x^2. 'Blast' effects are probably modeled as a circle but IRL are actually more complicated. The reality is that for most projectiles, the fragmentation will generally get you before any HE effect will. Blast can go through walls/material that fragmentation will not.

Theres a good mention of how hard to spot ATG are in Armor Battles of the Waffen SS. A Panther recieves 20 hits and still can't make out where the ATGs are. The rest of his platoon has been KOd and he is mostly buttoned up. The ATG are less than 200m away. The radio operator (first battle) loses his nerve and leaps out from the noise/shock of the hits. The panther is damaged but not that bad. Later, infantry advance and take out the ATG with LATW.

In Panzer Aces, Earnst is called upon to support an infantry assault. He is the only vehicle! He wipes out soviet MGs and gets the assault rolling but runs into soviet armor and gets into a knife fight at close range (~300m). Clearly the Hornet is not meant to be used this way (its only his third use of the Hornet actually). After using up his HE and on his way back to reload ammo, he is stopped and asked to deal with a T34 at 4 km. They get the T34 with 4 shots. They again are used in infantry support but this time in platoon (3 Hornet) strength. He loses his Hornet and some crewmen to indrect fire and is forced to destroy the vehicle. The next battle is 2 Hornets in a meeting engagement where the 2 Hornets can gain hull down positions on high ground but the enemy is within 1000-1200m. One of the Hornets gets hit but can retreat. Earnst then takes on the rest of the T34. He claims 14 victorys with 21 rounds. He actually goes over the hill beyond his safe HD position and gets into duels with the last of the T34s. The last T34 shoots long and then short before being nailed. Clearly they are not being used according to doctrine but because of the immediate needs. The same can be said of Carius (Tiger) and his being used as a mobile AT asset in muddy terrain.

The Zeiss prism binoculars of 1894 were the first commercially successful, the first mass produced, and the first high quality binoculars. At the same time, Zeiss offered 2 prism binoculars with objectives 12 inches apart (8 power,) and 16 inches apart (10 power.) A hinge between the oculars allows them to fold in half, leading to the generic term 'Scherenfernrohr' or scissors telescope. These were called by Zeiss, "Relieffernrohre," and were not successful. The 8 x 20 model was offered from 1894 to 1906, and the 10 x 25 from 1895 to 1908 and through 1918 for military use. They give spectacular views of terrestrial objects, greatly magnifying the perception of depth in a scene and the appearance of modeled relief in an object. Here there is no exaggerating the effect. They were used as rangefinders in both World Wars, by several service branches of most of the participants in the conflict. Hand held instruments were about 6 x 30, with objectives 18 inches apart, and a folding hinge to reduce the length for transport. Tripod mounted instruments could have 50mm objectives, for use at dawn and dusk. These were used by artillery forces to approximately judge distances. The smaller sizes were needed for quick judgments on shell bursts, when a large instrument or more complicated rangefinder could not work quickly enough. These 'battery commander's rangefinders' can occasionally be found at gun shows or military collectors' meetings, and there are a few optical repair shops remaining that can correct their typical out of collimation condition.

An unusual rangefinder in the form of an S.F. is shown in fig. 118. This model, developed in Germany during W.W. II, served to measure distance, and to observe at the same time. It is less prone to misalignment, and can be used from behind cover. Between the two objectives, there is a ‘waagerechter Kollimationsstrahl’ [balanced refracting collimation device]. This stereoscopic rangefinder was produced by Zeiss (blc) and Busch(cxn) until the end of the War. For details about this 'Disvau' (Zeiss) 'rangefinder of rugged construction', see Koenig/Koehler 1959, page 411. After the war, production under the name Em 61 [rangefinder 61] was continued in the area later known as the Eastern block. It is not clear if only Zeiss Jena produced them, or if they were also made at different places. Later models, similar but of larger and smaller construction, were added. These instruments are modified from the wartime models, for example some were supplied with light amplification, see fig. 119.

http://www.deutscheoptik.com/rangefinderinstruction.htm In Tiger Tanks-Michael Green, the British report that early Tigers were found with coincidence type rangefinders in them. The coincidence rangefinders were very similar to the ones used by light flak. This book also states that the SF type scissor scopes were used later. It also mentions that German binoculars had some type of 'strich' type marks in them. [ August 06, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Actually in the descriptions in Panzer Aces of Albert Earnst, he seems to be a fire-fighter rushing about and meeting enemy threats. He doesnt wait for the battle to come to him. In his first battle, he meets the enemy threatening to over run an infantry unit and takes vehicles under fire at 1800+m range.

I would assume that was for 75mmL48 weapon?

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009942 Heres another thread that addresses these issues. Read Panzer Aces-Kurowski for some descriptions of this battle. Its in paperback by Ballantine books. I am not sure if CMBB is slotted to be patched again. My feeling is that CMAK is going to get patched and its on to new business.

The most important part of the AP gunnery equation is getting the range. The 'accuracy' of the whole Hornet system hinges on this. The 88L71 is actually much more precise than the ability of most crews to guage the range. As an example, the gun could probably score multiple hits against a tank sized target at 1400 m. That is, it is repeatable. Once the AP was on target, and the target does not move, successive hits can be obtained. But a crew with just ordinary binoculars or gunners sights could not judge range at 1400m to actually be 1400m most of the time. They are the wildcard in the equation. Thats where a device like a SF (scissors-scope) stereoscopic rangefinder closes the loop. It could give the Hornet crew the ability to measure the range within acceptable tolerances so that it matches the guns performance. Given the long range penetration of this weapon, having these SF was critical. Even if just a Hornet zug commander had them, and could relay range data via radio, it would make a big difference. They are also dual purpose and are excellent spotting scopes so that misses could be adjusted onto target. This further extends the crews observation and extends the killing ability of the weapon into its non-repeatable range. It may take more shots but kills out to 2500+m can be obtained. In Panzer Aces, Albert Earnst is calling out some long range shots. Even out to 4000m (took a few rounds but a kill is made). He is described as using these SF. He later went on to command Jagdtiger (which had SF also) and also had some extreme range success. [ August 06, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I have seen these SF being used by artillery units and they are not splayed all the way out either. That Germangoy guy has a website about a relative and his arty experiences in WWII. I believe there is a photo looking through a SF also.

Its wierd. They make such a big deal about the Strich method and then they claim that you can't approximate range with one eye. In any case, I have read so many accounts and WWII tank warfare is pretty much what Jeff described earlier. Its apparent that this 'method' is for long range shooting. It would not be used for shorter ranges. The gunner using his Strich method would be better for less than 1000m. Another thing I find odd is this 'adding to the range'. This adding is needed because you want to hit the enemy tank and not have the AP land at its feet. Were the guns actually zeroed like that? Seems to me, I would zero a gun so that it would hit a enemy afv sized target in its center. The drill would be: 1. Rough in boresight at 25 or 50 meters 2. Set up target at 1000 m (2.5m x2m) 3. Shoot/adjust AP so that hits target in a group in its center This way, if a enemy AFV is seen and its range judged to be 1000m, then fire at 1000m! Its almost as if the guns are zeroed for HE (where you DO want the round to land at the range). [ August 06, 2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Yes I edited my post also. My main point is that photographic evidence shows they are being splayed out. Angling them all the way out may have been overkill for most AFV needs. Measuring range to +/-100m being sufficient for most HV guns out to 2500m or so. [ August 05, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

General Army Communication of June 7, 1941: 'Use of binoculars and scissor telescopes at night. It is to be noted that at night, the distance of effective observation of the unaided eye can be doubled with the 6x30 binocular, and about tripled with a 10 x 50 binocular or a scissor telescope O.K.H. (Ch H Ruest u. BdE), May 31, 1941. 79 ln4 (IIIb)' An important part of an S.F. is the reticle, which was mainly needed for target shooting at sight, for artillery measurements, and for estimating distance. The reticle is placed in the image plane of the ocular, so that the scale and the observed image could be seen at the same time, similar to the cross hairs of a rifle scope. During the first World War, there was a diversity of reticles; but the later reticles, of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, were mostly standardized. During this time, a new reticle was developed: the Gitterplatte [grid plate], initially used for special purposes. The authors cannot give an exact date for the introduction of this. [page 197] In the paper by Kaiser (1918), the 'well known grid-plate' is mentioned, and therefore some S.F.s were equipped with the grid plate during the first World War. The S.F.s with ‘existing’ reticles were known as 'SF 14 Z', and the S.F.s with grid plates were named 'SF 14 Z Gi'. From the outside, the two models are indistinguishable. The grid plate, see fig. 115, was of such great benefit that during the second World War, it was used almost exclusively. The grid plate was the characteristic mark of the German S.F. of the second World War. From the Army instruction paper of January 1937, it can be seen (in the most beautiful language of officials), that the grid plate was generally built into new instruments only after this point in time. [ August 05, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

No one has shown data that these scissor scopes HAD to be at full angle to be used as stereoscopic range finders. In fact, I am starting to suspect that they worked by varying the angle. I have seen them at many different angles. If they had to be at full horizontal to be used as rangefinders, then why vary the angle at all? Why not leave them just vertical? And its already been shown that they could periscope up and clear the holes on the vehicles. Please, again, try to review the thread and catch up. These scissor scopes, like mono-gunsights, have a level bubble. Again, look at the pictures closer. In Panzer Aces, the section on Albert Ernst (Hornet, JagdTiger) also shows he used scissor scopes to guage range. Including some very long range shooting with minimal round expenditure. I would dare say that to be a StuG TC, you would have to pass some course using these scopes. Perhaps only panzer platoon commanders may have needed to do that. Some people may be able to do it better than others? No kidding. Thats why there are standards of performance to pass a class. These scissor scopes were multifunction items. They could be used as periscopes and as stereoscopic rangefinders. Its almost certain they are more expensive to make them than a mono periscope. One lens could be replaced with a 20X lens to make a super spotting scope. [ August 05, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Theres good info in Armor Battles of the Waffen SS

This pic shows that a Hornet (Nashorn) appears to have a Scissor scope. In Panzer Aces, the crews are described using scissor scopes. [ August 05, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

This is a German 75mm HEAT round. It clearly could produce fragments. The direction and velocity of these fragments may have been different than a 75mm HE round. My guess is that it would throw fragments towards the rear more so than a typical HE shell. I assume these shells were fuzed for graze or superquick. It actually would have been useful to have a delay setting for use against buildings/troops/etc.

http://tiger1.info/fibel/index.html Heres a site that may have an english Tigerfibel translation available.

This is a close up crop of the gunner's side of the 8.8cm gun again, this time focusing on the overhead hatch and empty sight bracket for the SflZF1a/Rblf36 direct/indirect sight. This was the same excellent sight design used in the later versions of the StuG III, StuG IV, Jagdpz IV, as well as the Hetzer. It is a monocular 5X sight with an eight degree field of view and allows both indirect and direct firing solutions. This is from afv interior website about Elephant regarding its gunsight. The point is; did the German AG/Jagdpanzers have better gunners sights AND TC scissors scopes (standard) than panzers? Rexford claims that scissors scopes were 5X. This is wrong. [ August 05, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

This is a close up crop of the gunner's side of the 8.8cm gun again, this time focusing on the overhead hatch and empty sight bracket for the SflZF1a/Rblf36 direct/indirect sight. This was the same excellent sight design used in the later versions of the StuG III, StuG IV, Jagdpz IV, as well as the Hetzer. It is a monocular 5X sight with an eight degree field of view and allows both indirect and direct firing solutions. This is from afv interior website. Its in regards to Elephant gunners sight. I would assume that the Hornet also used this sight? The Hornet's used stereoscopic range finders like the StuGs did. See the Pantherfibel thread for more on these. On the left side of this pic, you will see part of a scissor scope stereorangefinder. [ August 05, 2004, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]