Shaka of Carthage

Ditto the comments about excellent idea. I didn't quite get it the first time I read the Norway idea. I was thinking too much about the Axis "sub route" to the Atlantic. Didn't fully appreciate the Allied option. Great idea.

This came up in another topic. I felt it deserved its own topic. (written by 88mm, I edited it a little) Do you want to play a "historical" and as close as it can towards "realistic" game or do you want to re-write history ? Actualy, now that I think about it. Why are there 2 types of Airfleets? Why not 1 ? It's a Airfleet, right? With all different kind of planes, including bombers. Why 2 ,3 types of naval fleets. Why cruiser, Battleship and Carriers ? Why not destroyers? After all the detroyer was/is enemy number 1 of a sub, any sub. So the Cruisers/Battleships must I see as fleets with supporting destroyers etc... It's a strange setup, 2 air-type (some would like 3), 4 naval types, and just one infantry(well 1 and 1/2, given the 1/2 sized corps) and one Panzer unit. Where's the recon, police-units (to control occupied arrea), Pioniertroops, Armored Infantry, Motorised infantry, Anti-tank bataljons, Ligth Tanks, Heavy Tanks, etc.etc.etc. That's why i don't understand the need for JET-fleets, while the hole game is simplified to the max. (except a few strange choice, see my comment on naval vessels). Also this kind of changes involves re-writing the game-engine, instead of adjusting gamebalance. (enhancements) sounds great, but when implemented you still don't have a complete, realistic game. That is at least what I think about it.

Edwin P Linking Jets to Rockets... Rocket Tech Level 3 is a V-1. Level 4 a V-2. I "assumed" that V-2 development would have refined the Me-262 engine enough to allow mass production. Removing strength points... Short answer is that I equate strength points to manpower. Stronger anti-tank weapons or more effective tanks did not add more men to a unit. Long answer What is a Strength Point? 88mm Jets and realism... Same concept that the "what-if" factor provides to SC. Variable movement rate... Its different from what most wargamers are used to. But think about it. Weather in an wargame reduces your movement rate. Here, instead of reducing the mvmt rate, he compressed the time. Gives the same effect for movement purposes. Reduction to 50-70% from 90%... I'll give that some thought. Inf Move/Attk... You understand me correctly, but I do like your approach better. I will make that edit. Simplicity and missing things... Curious what else you think SC lacks. Why not make a new topic and list your concerns? Actually, noticed that you did make a new post with some concerns. I will take the liberty of making a new topic with that post.

Everyone Let me thank all of you for the current and future responses. This is exactly the type of thing I like so much about this forum... the challenges to the grey matter. Edwin P. Option #1 and #2 regarding weather... Here we can all start to have some compassion for the task Mr H (Hubert Cater) has ahead of him. You're absolutely correct about those two options, but instead of it being a "OR" condition, it will have to be a "AND" option. If he ignores the "geographic" winter line, the purists will bombard him. And having the hex change depending on the weather, will be different depending on the nation (ie country colors). He'll end up having to do both methods or try to find a more "unique" approach, like he did with the weather "movement" affect. I will assume you don't have a programming background, if you do, its better. Programming has logic and the data that logic manipulates. Think in terms of a spreadsheet. The logic is a formula and data is a cell. Your finished system is a large number of spreadsheets that are linked together. Changing the logic, either the current stuff or adding new stuff is hard, even for a "easy" fix. Problem is because of the "ripple" effect... change one variable in a formula and while that spreadsheet will give you the results you want, you can bet that some spreadsheet somewhere will now produce the wrong result. Good programmers minimize the relationships between the variables while bad ones have no idea what the word "relationship" means (ending up with what people call "spagetti code"). Thats where your "beta" testers come in. They are suppossed to check all the variable effects that one change can make. Changing the "data" is much easier. You can immediately see the results as soon as you use that new "data". And some of your users (like arby and KDG will actually be able to replicate some of the internal process because they see the data and can see the effect changing it has (ie like they did with the combat model). Here is my point... everything you say about the weather zones (and the wonderful stuff you provided for AI enhancements) requires adding or changing existing logic. It needs to be thoroughly tested by the programmer AND beta testers. Otherwise, release "buggy" code out to the public and they say bad things about you. Since you are going to do all this work, you might as well do other things as well... like expanding the map. But once you do that, you have to change this, then that, and next thing you know, that "easy" change is now a six (6) month project. Thats the thing that Bill Macon is alluding too about working on the AI, Diplomacy, new map, etc. See what you get for appreciating explanations? [ May 03, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

Piumarcobaleno If you can, would you mind writting your rules up in English and presenting them to us? I would be curious to see what they are like.

Edwin P Weather zones... I agree with the concept. Matter of fact, the weather zones should not be tied to the nation, rather they should be based along geographical lines. But the problem is, SC doesn't have that currently, nor does SC have anything resembling weather zones that we could use. So you are talking about adding "new" stuff. Like adding new units instead of just modifying the one's we have. Outside of my "enhancement" concept. Forgot to tell you "why" the 90% winter thing. It is piggybacking upon the same logic that is used for Partisans. Currently there is a 15%(?) chance of partisan occuring, but in winter that goes to 70%(?). So same subroutine that this occurs, we can insert the 90% chance for Air units. Severity of winter variable ... "Winter" turn in SC is only 3 turns out of the entire 27(?) turns we have in a year. One player is getting 1 winter turn, while other player gets 2 winter turns. Not enough to justify variable % chances. Entrenchment stops in weather... Bad weather stops construction. Building of pillboxes, minefields, reinforcing structures, etc these require construction materials to be brought up from rear areas... things like mines, concrete, steel beams, etc. No materials, no construction.

What can I say? I am only trying to impart some hard learned experience. :cool: Anyone want some advice on how to get a stripper to go home with you?

88mm The consumption of tech chits per advance and the disadvantages to Jets should put some more balance back into aircraft. The combat effect I will address later. Seawolf_48 Still not convinced that a retreat option is needed, especially as it will add additional programming. The change in factors that the Tank Groups use in combat are more reflective of the power of armor. And the removal of the Army/Corp ability to move/attack should give Tank Groups the dominance they had. Air combat effect I'll address later. Agree about the map, but that is outside the scope of these suggested enhancements.

Edwin P I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but I am going to have to disagree with the way you are going about it. Everything you say about HQ's is correct. The leadership "bonus" that it gives accounts for the higher level commander. The problem is that we as players know the ability of that leader... hence we get the best HQ we can afford. If SC wants to solve this, then determine an average cost for each nation and randomly assign the leader when we purchase the HQ. ---------------------------------------------- The "magic number" when the leadership effect becomes so diluted it losses its major effect is around 100,000 men. The smaller the number, the more effect that leader will have. Larger numbers become "institutional" and you need time to make an effect. Smaller numbers you have an effect because you get can rid of the incompetent people, introduce new training methods, doctrine, and other practices. (edited paragraph) ---------------------------------------------- Divisions Then we get to the division leadership. This is I believe what you are referring to. WWII studies where done (mainly by Dupuy) that showed there was a vast difference in the "quality" of the same type of divisions. What they found, was that it came down to the Divsion Commander (not the only reason, but the main reason). The ability of the division leader was the difference between a "poor" division and a "excellent" division. Numerically that factor was about four (4). Unit representation for this would be experience, since in SC that is where your leadership and training are more or less reflected. But then you get multiple divisions going into a Corp or Army... depending on who you ask the number varies, but I think it is more like four (4) divisions to a Corp, hence eight (8) for a Army. Add to that, the non-divisional assets that are attached and the end result is that you have a diluted effect of the "superior" divisional leadership since it is very rare for all of the division leaders to be superior. Also, at the Army/Corp level, other factors become more important in determining the quality of the unit. [ May 02, 2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

SeaWolf_48 Sure you can. The key is having your wife pick your girlfriend. That way, if there any problems, you can blame your wife.

Historically Responsible (love that term, thanks JerseyJohn) SC is near perfect as a game for two balanced sides to fight each other during WWII. Thats fine for Greys' fighting the Reds'. I want Germans fighting Russians. Here are the items I feel would accomplish that. SC Enhancements This is my attempt to have the economy reflect the importance of certain minerals and oil. MPP+ System [ May 12, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

Thanks gentlemen, not a problem

I would like all of you to take a look at the enhancement options that I am proposing. I hope to answer most, if not all of your requests and issues. The easiest way to find it, is to go to that sticky thread on the top, the one for newbies, and link to my topic from there. I'm very interested in seeing why it may not meet your need(s). I have tried to address the issues we all seem to be having. [ May 02, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

zappsweden Take a break from SC, get yourself recharged and then come back. We will be waiting for you. Thank you so much for the idea, time and effort you have put into the Ladder. While most of the time all you hear are the complaints, all of us do appreciate everything you have done.

Enhancements Winter turns </font> 90% chance Air (fighter or bomber) unit is "grounded" (ie AP = 0, Spotting = 0)</font>Reduce cities supply level by 50%</font>Entrenchment stops</font>Double effect of movement on readiness</font>No Amphibious operations allowed (added 05/13).</font> Fall turns </font>90% chance Air (fighter or bomber) unit is "grounded" (ie AP = 0, Spotting = 0) if it is not in a city (added 05/13).</font>No Amphibious operations allowed (added 05/13).</font> Technology </font> Once achieve a level, remove research chit.</font>Anti-Tank, remove strength point increase (retain cost increase).</font>Heavy Tank, remove strength point increase (retain cost increase).</font>To achieve Air Tech Level 4, you need Rocket Tech Level 4.</font>To achieve Air Tech Level 5, you need Rocket Tech Level 5.</font>At Air Tech Level 4, Air unit (Jet) "strike" is reset to 3.</font>Upgrades to a Corp are half that of a Army.</font>Gun Laying Radar Tech Level 2, will increase Soft Attack and Defense factors by one (1)(added 05/13).</font>Gun Laying Radar Tech Level 4, will increase Soft Attack and Defense factors by one (1)(added 05/13).</font> Movement </font>Transports can only "unload" in a Port (except for HQ).</font>HQ transport, can unload next to a coast hex (ie "floats"). Can move only onto land and current hex counts as clear land hex for all other purposes.</font>Amphibious option: Corp only, cost 3 times unit cost, range of 3, otherwise identical to current transport option.</font>Reduce Army AP (action points) to 2, Corp AP to 3.</font>Remove movement and attack ability from Army and Corp units.</font> Combat </font> Change the Soft Attack / Soft Defense values of the Army unit from 4/2 to 2/4.</font>Change the Soft Attack / Soft Defense values of the Corp unit from 2/1 to 1/2.</font>Tank Group attacking Army/Corp change from Soft Attack vs Tank Defense to Tank Attack vs Tank Defense.</font> Production </font>Newly purchased ground or air units can only be produced at your capitol. Russia, in this case, has three (3) capitols... Moscow, Sverdlovsk and Stalingrad. (added 05/13)</font> [ May 13, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

Historically Responsible The enhancement list is in the next post. This is the "why" The purpose of this topic is to consolidate all of the ideas (including the ones I "borrowed" from some of you) that I feel should be in the SC "enhancement". By "enhancement", I mean this. Current SC (ver 1.07) is the base system. If I was the designer, these are the things I would do to "tweak" it to get a more historical and realistic representation of WWII. Without losing too much in playability. Hence, there will be no "replacement" systems, it will work with what we have. If a new sub-system was written from scratch, I would take a different approach. This will be a "evergreen" document, that will be linked to a posting in the "newbie" sticky. By "evergreen" I mean that as I get a new idea that meets the above criteria, I will include it here with the appropriate editing notation. Feel free to ask any questions about what I am suggesting, but unlike the majority of my posts, I am not going to explain why. I will just post what I think is a relevant enhancement. So if you want clarifaction or you just disagree, go ahead and post. And for those ideas that I "borrowed" from other people, if I have not thanked you already, let me do it here. Of course, any mistakes or complaints about the idea should be directed towards me. [ August 23, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

Il Duce and Grand Strategy What went wrong? Italy's economy was small and the population was only 40 million. As a "power" it was much closer to Poland than Germany or France. Somalia and Ethiopia make sense as they offerred the raw materials that Italy needed. Especially as they would be needed to fuel industrial growth. Egypt was desired for the same reason that the British had it... the Suez Canal. But fighting Great Britan had to come much later. What was really wanted, was French Syria. It had the oil Italy needed. But this was also the biggest challenge, as France had a border with Italy, along with the largest and best European army. The concept of Mare Nostrum makes alot of sense. Navy Il Duce probably looked at the UK for his role model. British were after all the dominant naval power in the world. All Il Duce needed was to be the dominant naval power in the Med. No innovate thinking. No sub heavy force, since he wanted to project power, not cut off the Br/Fr access to resources. And those same forces could project his own merchant ships carrying the resources back to Italy. No carriers either, since no one thought of aircraft in those terms. Air Force Here it gets interesting. Il Duce was an airpower enthusiast. This is where alot of effort went. Lack of skilled technicians would have been a problem, but there was more than enough time to train them. And Libya, Somalia and Ethiopia would have been perfect areas to test concepts. But somewhere around 1935 (for unclear reasons) the Air Force lost that edge. Japan had similar problems to Italy, but succeeded in building up its Air Force. Imagine Italy with its own version of a Zero and pilots trained to the level that the Japanese pilots were? And backed up by large paratrooper forces? Can you say "goodbye Malta"? Army Germany, Italy and Russia understood how to properly use tanks. When the Italian military went to Duce with the idea of tanks, tank divisions and motorized infantry divisions, he said no. You could work on it, but there were other things that were more important. His reasoning was that Italy was not "motorized" enough to support that kind of Army. He was right, if you compare the ratio of automobiles and tractors to the populations of the various nations involved in WWII. The first "real" Italian Tank was not ready until 1943. Monarchy One of the two big "problems". The military traditions and the officers all came from the upper middle class and the aristocracy. Its hard for us as Americans to understand what this really means. Think of it this way. You could become a military officer in the Italian Army/Navy if you are a celebrity. Here is were Duce made his biggest mistake. He did not address this problem and he had no control over them. He should have paid closer attention to what the Roman Empire did. As a counter to the Roman Senatorial class, the Empire used Equestrians. And when it was strategically important to the Empire, the Equestrians got the command, not a Senator. Duce should have done the same thing with the NCO's and promoted seasoned NCO's as Warrant Officers. Industry This one is tough. It was small enough that the corruption was a critical problem. Taking political power away from the "corporations" (ie special interest groups) probably did not help. Unlike Stalin, Duce did not have the ability to "bootstrap" his economy. Politics Here Duce had no rival. He was a master of manipulating the media. While he had an authoritarian regime, he had nowhere near the control that Hitler or Stalin did. Nor could he take the steps they did to achieve that kind of control. There was no civil war or wartime defeat to wash away the old institutions and replace them with his own. He had to do it thru the political process, which left him by the 30's in a bad place with the King and the Pope. I believe that Hitler admired Duce for that very reason, since alot of what Hitler did and his methods could be traced back to Il Duce. It would also explain why he supported him to the very end. Duce was Hitler's role model. Pope and the Catholic Church The second of his problems. We as Americans have a hard time understanding the "control" that the Church had. Even after reading so much about it, I still have a hard time understanding it. I can offer no good analogies. Maybe someone else out there can. While Duce was an atheist, the majority of Italians were not. Here was a "check and balance" that he could not ignore or control.

Gorber Wouldn't it be easier for you to say "put the HC economic model into SC"?

Isn't there something in the law that allows Texas to become five (5) different states?

Benito Mussolini (1883 - 1945) I did the best with what I had The year is 1922, the 39 year old Mussolini has become the head of government. But he has to share power with special interest groups, the King and the Church. Italy is poor, undeveloped, largely rural and agrarian. It doesn't like Germany, but it hates the French more. Over the next eleven (11) years: invasion of Libya in '22, Somalia in '23; abolish the constitution (no more special interest group politics); Fascist party cleansed of any competitor (except Balbo); Air Force pro-fascist; Naval ships built. Now its time to show who is the leader of Europe. Invites France, Britain and Germany to Rome in June '33 and it results in the Four Power Pact. Germany is the junior partner to be used against France and Britain. Hitler and Mussolini meet in '34, but for some reason, Hitler doesn't understand his role. He's a silly little monkey. Still two problems. Monarchy and the Church. Some compromises were made with the Church but they still need to go. Can't get rid of the King, because he has the Army and Navy behind him. Can't do anything with the Army/Navy since they answer to the King. Catch-22. Duce needs a war and the successes of a war so he can get rid of the King and Pope. And politically, he needs to get the credit, not the military. Enter the Carnicie Nere, the Blackshirts (ie CCNN). Ethiopia invaded in '35, Spanish Civil War in '36. But a few problems pop up. CCNN are a joke. Germany now has a border with Italy (Austria '38) and that worries Italy. Corruption and incompetence are hampering technical advancement in the Air Force. And now the military wants a break. And the King and the Pope are still bugging Il Duce. Time to declare a great success. There is now an Italian East Africa, and the British and French couldn't stop us. Gives Duce time to work on the anti-German attitudes and get ready for war in around '43 or '45. And maybe the German alliance can give Duce some leverage to break the grip of the King and Pope. 1939 started off as a good year. Spanish Civil War ended (March), Albania invaded (April), alliance with Germany (May). Other than problems with the Pope, not too bad. Then the stupid little monkey invaded Poland (Sept), giving Duce one week's notice. Italy calls the shots, not Germany... nonbelligerence is declared. By the end of 1939, it looked like WWI was gonna happen again. But we'll sit this one out and pick up the pieces afterwards. April '40, Denmark and Norway fall. Its starting. May '40, Germany invades France. Il Duce watches his dream of getting French Syria, British Egypt crumble as the French fall faster than his mistresses knickers. June '40 Duce orders the Italian military to invade France so he can get something out of the deal. Once France surrendered, Italy had lost 5,000 men and 2 kilometers of territory. They had inflicted 15 losses. And to make it worse, Vichy France had control of the territory that Italy wanted. June to Oct '40 was a bad time for the Allies. Great Britain was alone, the US was neutral and the Russians had a nonaggression pact with Germany. Perfect time for Italy to act. But there was political chaos. It takes until Sept '40 before the Army will move and invade British-controlled Egypt. They advance a few miles, then stop. Oct '40 the Army invades Greece. Need I say it? Advance a few miles then stop. Dec'40, the Greeks counterattack and drive the Italians back into Albania. The same day in Dec '40, the British counterattack in North Africa. Hundreds of miles are lost and a significant number of troops as well over the next two months. Jan '41, the British began a campaign to conquer Italian East Africa. Feb '41 the British are in Libya. The Italian military prepares a coup against Il Duce. April '41, German Afrika Korps goes into action against the British in Libya. The British retreat. Apr 3 '41, Pro-Nazi coup in Iraq. British invade and take control by end of May. Apr 6 '41, Germany, Italy and Bulgaria invade Yugo and conquer it within a week. April 9 '41 Germany invades Greence and counquers it in eleven days. The actions of April (and the British putting troops into Greece) are the only things that saved Il Duce from the coup. But he was a broken man, his dreams were gone and he became a German puppet. And the Army decided to start making reforms. For one brief moment, the old Il Duce came back. It was around '42 (?) when he pleaded with Hitler to make peace with Stalin. Hitler didn't listen. What went wrong? I'll answer that later today, cause its late and I need my sleep.

gorber There is nothing definite about what economic system the future SC will use. Quite a few of us, including myself, have discussed various ideas. I tried to put together the ideas for a "simplified" model that used economic resources. If you are interested, I can find it, its somewhere back there in those old postings. I can't remember is someone else presented there own model version.

I've cannabilized my older computers, so there is no way I can get it to run. I did have it running in the past when those older machines were "state of the art". Well well... seems we have hijacked another topic. JersyJohn, you are a bad influence on me. This is the second topic we've hijacked in as many days.

To implement the factory idea, you are basically talking about a totally different economic system. Multiple economic resources and various production capabilities. If you are gonna go down this path, you might as well throw manpower into this mix.

SeaWolf_48 The strength of the Polish Airforce was complained about back way too many pages. Just like there were complaints about the Partisan forces being too strong. It comes down to the fact that it was a easy way to get these units in play without having to make a new unit to represent them. And the player always has the option to edit the scenario unit strength of the Polish Air Force (which most of the "historical" mods do).

gorber Could you do me a favor? Ask whomever what "ancient code" it was written in. Or have them contact me with that info. I've written code in most of those "ancient" languages. JersyJohn & gorber I've see this Ryan's website I believe. It would be nice if you guys got him back here. It's not an easy thing to develop software. And once you get it out there, published, unless you are very lucky or get someone like Battlefront, you are gonna get screwed out of your money (what little there is). Most designers leave in disgust afterwards.