fiaros

I am in. Let's go!

I am here and ready to go!

Hello to all I am playing matches on this tournament with. These days I am on some kind of trip and I can't send you my moves. Haven't bought my laptop already... I will be back on Thursday, God's will, so be patient until then. Cheers, Thomas.

Slysniper, Mikado was away for the weekend and now he got back. I know it because we even finished our match today. It was draw and a very fierce battle, as far as I could tell... Now I am moving on to the next round. My three new matches are already in progress. fiaros

I am in.

My answer will be short. I suggest the next book you'll read to be about the fights the Cretan people gave for their liberation, especially in the 19th century and the begining of the last one. I must admit that I don't know very much about it myself, but I am sure you'll find your answers there and other fanscinating stories as well.

Ok here are the titles in which all the articles of the “Historika” No.136 (Eleftherotypia newspaper, May 30 2002) magazine was based on: - Remember, my subject here was to provide information about the Greek Tactical Army with a small prologue, not to describe the whole battle. It would have taken me weeks to translate these two magazines. If anyone’ s interested though in additional information, please let me know. - Beevor A., Crete, Battle and Resistance, translated in Greek. - Stewart I., The Battle Of Crete, Battle and Resistance, translated in Greek. - Woodhouse C., - Clark A., The Fall Of Crete, Blond, London 1962. - Davin D., Crete, Official History of new Zealand in the Second World War 1939- 1945, War History Branch, Wellington N.Z. 1953. - De Belot R., The struggle for the Mediterranean 1939- 1945, Princeton 1951. - Holland J., The Aegean Mission, Greenwood Press, London 1989. - Kaloudis P., Strung uber Kreta, Druffel Verlag, Munich 1981. - Kyriakopoulos G.C., Ten Days to Destiny, Franklin Watts, New York 1985. - Kurowski F., Der Kampf um Kreta, Moewing, Munich 1988. - Long G., Australian War History- Greece, Crete and Syria, Australian War Memorial, Kambera(sorry if I wrote it wrong) 1953. - Papastratis P., British Policy Towards Greece during the Second World War, Cambridge 1984. There are Greek books, something less than double of these titles, consisting also the bibliography of this magazine. Now here is the bibliography in which the Greek retired major- General’s article was based on. Note here that it wasn’t the only article in “Stratiotiki Istoria” No7, Periskopio Editions. I concinder it much reliable since the writer is also a Military History Professor in SSE Greek School Of War. Note also that my passage was only a part of his article referring to the Greek Regiments and that the “fishing boat” thing was something I remembered from my readings, almost sure about it not sure where I found it though. There are also a couple of things which I added from my readings, let alone these two magazines, quite trivial though which don’t distort the overall text. The facts are true. - Beevor’ s book, same as above, Penguin Books 1991. - Callum MacDonald: THE LOST BATTLE, CRETE 1941, Papermac ed., London, 1993. - J.F.C. Fuller: THE SECOND WORLD WAR, Da Capo ed., New York, 1992. - Major- general I.S.O. Playfair: THE GERMANS COME TO HELP OF THEIR ALLY (1941), volume 2 on the “Mediterranean and The Middle East” series of the official british history of WW2, London 1956. - Includes also four Greek titles, three of them published by the Greek Army Editions. His sources are also archives from the new Zealand Military Records Service, and addresses on the net which you’ll probably already know. In his article there is an additional information about the 1st Greek Regiment: On the night of May 31st and June 1st warships took among others 40 men of that Regiment on their way to Middle East. Hope didn’t make any mistake.

Good link Determant; provides some infos I didn't know about Indian troops of the Allied forces.

Determinant I think you got me wrong. Anyway, I'll continue to translate passages from the Greek, cause I think that is very helpful indeed for those who study military history and don't have access to greek sources. Maj.Battaglia I'll write down the bibliographie which the two articals I was based on has used, very soon. I think it will be very useful to you, at least the english titles. About the Greek ones, I'll do a little search, athough I don't think I have many chances to find them translated.

First of all I must state that in my opinion a good historian, or any scientist, or in fact every man, must put his own signature on a progect, providing he has read all the ones before him and he has consolidate his subgect having actually something new and remarkable to say. Men are known from their actions, and they are open to anyone's jugdement. "Barbarians" in ancient Greek were all the non-Greeks. That has to do mostly about the culture, language, and the all in all communication problem which Greeks had with other people and tribes and I am sure it doesn't have the contemptuous today's meaning, very much influenced, in my opinion, by western- European perceptions about people. I say that because if you take a Greek and "clean him up" from foreigner influencions, you will see that he has an ecumenical understanding in his blood. That ecumenism existed already on Ancient Greeks, transformed though in a more practical way on the times of Alexander the Great and the following ellinistic kingdoms, which led us to the ecumenism of the Roman empire, where Christianity found a “fertile ground”. It is not accidental that Novum Testamentum was originally written in Greek. So don’t be bothered if you found yourself undesirable in some times when you visit Greece. Remember: sometimes we Greeks feel strangers in our own country!

Well first of all I must say I translated it myself combining information from basically two magazines, one of military material and the other concerning history. At the “History” magazine coming along with a major Greek newspaper once a week, they are being published articles and researches of Greek and foreign Universities professors. The information about the regiments where taken from the first one. This magazine: “Stratiotiki Istoria/ Military History” is written mostly by retired officers of the Greek Army, according to my impression. In fact that article was written by a retired major-general called Dimitris Gedeon and professor of military history in a School of War here in Greece. I assume that the information of this passage were taken by a book published by the Greek army editions organization (I think these records are published years after the incidents they describe. However, the same author provides the bibliography from which this article was written. It has both Greek and English titles, but nothing about Clarks work. Now about the information Alan Clark provides, I presume again that it was taken by an eyewitness or a third person very well informed of what was happened, probably foreigner. They number you state about the privates is not far from what I support in my post, but the exact truth in this case probably will never been known. About the equipment, I think it is most likely to be true what you say. Well, we know these men fought, so it is highly impossible that they did it with bare hands. About the reversed story you write down, I have to say only one thing: in this battle fighters and prisoners were “changing roles” very fast, as it was in fact a hybrid, a strange kind of war, in which armed and unarmed civilians, militia, gendarmerie, paramilitary groups, young students of the Evelpidon School of War (who I think went there by their own decision, ignoring their superiors prohibitions and having lost many of their colleagues on a Stuka bombardment in Korinthos while moving southwards), Greek tactical infantry, British, Australians, Newzelands, and of course fallschirmjagers were fighting each other, in a wide area from where the invasion took place, in the middle of bombardments and anti-aircraft fire.

Thanks ozi. It was something I couldn't think of...

JonS sorry but it just turned to be that way. Seanachai you should recognize this then. Michael Emrys don't worry, I can hadle it myself.

20.4.1941 General Tsolakoglou signs the cease-fire treaty and the Greek army starts to retreat from Albania in order to avoid being captured from the Italians, whom it was winning for 6 months now. In central Macedonia after the disruption of the “Metaxa line” Hitler frees the Greek captives in acknowledgement of their bravery in fighting on the “Ruppel’s fortresses”. The men holding these fortresses in eastern Macedonia and Thrace also retreat in order to avoid captivity from the Germans or the Bulgarians. All these soldiers, most of them reached the boundaries of human endurance, were moving south by any means carrying only to return to their homes and families alive. 20.000 of these soldiers are Cretans. 23.4.1941 King George B’ moves the Greek government to Crete. 27.4.1941 German troops enter the unfortified city of Athens. As the Germans were moving into the mainland, British, Australian and New Zealand Units began to arrive in Crete in bad condition and together the first Greek administrative stuff along with part of the gold of the Bank Of Greece. For the people of the island, that was a sign that the war will be continued into their territory. There was a certain problem though… The Cretans didn’t have the best relations with George’s and Metaxas’s dictatorship, as they were traditionally attached to the Venizelos’s side. Some in Crete stated that the government deliberately sent the vital for the defense of the island Cretan Division to the front and placed it to the bloodstained sector in front of Tepeleni in order to punish them for their improper behavior at the duration of the dictatorship. The assassination of the 5th Division commander right after he arrived in the island indicates the feelings of both sides. Certain measures were taken in order to achieve unity in this crucial point. However, forming and keeping in discipline militia and other armed men’s formations was quite difficult and the British weren’t willing to experiment with paramilitary groups whose reactions would be unpredictable. Tactical army wasn’t possible to be transported into the island and any Cretan soldier or other who wanted to take part in the defense of the island had to be transported there by his own means, usually by hiring a fishing boat. In 30th April 1.500 local volunteers aged 18 to 21 years old, had the duty to keep the order when the bombardments start. The local gendarmerie reinforced by 11 other Companies from the mainland also played an important role in the defense of the island. It was poorly equipped though, with various types of guns, Italian, Greek, English and American of different caliber each one and was placed into the cities. It is essential in this point to underline the lack of equipment and ammunition for the defenders and certain mistakes or omissions on this issue. 300 Lee-Enfield riffles were guarded by the British in a warehouse in Hania, the same time Greek soldiers were fighting with WWI riffles. Also, it was discovered accidentally a warehouse with guns in Heraklion, after the beginning of the German invasion. According to estimations the Greeks (soldiers and civilians) who fought at the battle of Crete were approximately 14.000. Here is the tactical Greek Army, consisted of regiments formed by battalions of recruits and fugitives from Greece: 1st Infantry Regiment Consists of 30 officers and 1.000 privates approximately. Equipment 1.000 riffles of various types and 5 Saint Etienne machine-guns. Placed on Kasteli Kissamou. 20.5.41 a group of 72 fallschirmjagers trying to occupy the semi-finished Kasteli airport fell on the regiment, reinforced with armed civilians. The commander of that group and 58 parachutists were killed, while the 13 survivors were forced to surrender. Regiments loses were 57 dead and 67 wounded. A 57mm gun, two big(81mm) and four small(51mm) mortars, a motorcycle and four anti-tank guns were captured. 23.5 the regiment repulsed another attack. During the evacuation of Crete it moved southwards and a part of its men managed to escape in Egypt by British warships in 29.5. 2nd Infantry Regiment Consists of 30 officers and 900 privates approximately. Equipment 500 riffles of various types along with 200 bullets for each one. Until 26.5 it took part in “cleaning-up” operations in the Hania area. It was “melted” that very day. 3rd Infantry Regiment Consists of 56 officers and 600 privates. Equipment 600 Steyr of WWI riffles and 10 Saint Etienne machine-guns. Each riffle had approximately 15 bullets. It fought at the Heraklion sector, where it managed to repulse effectively the fallschirmjagers in cooperation with the British. It captured plentiful war material by which unarmed soldiers and civilians were equipped. In 21.5 it gave fierce door-to-door fights in Heraklion. In 25.5 its force reduced in half and it withdrew for reorganization and supply. After British evacuated the island, men were surrendered to the Germans. 4th Infantry Regiment Consists of 1.300 privates, all recruits and unknown officers number. Equipment 850 Steyr riffles and 4 Saint Etienne machine-guns. Each riffle had 15 bullets while machine-guns had sufficient number of bullets. 5th Infantry Regiment Consists of 1.200 privates and unknown officers number. Equipment 800 Mannlicher riffles, 20 “1915” light machine-guns and 5 Saint Etienne machine-guns. Each riffle had 15-20 bullets. The automatic weapons had no ammo at all. These two regiments fought along with the Australians in Rethymno and took part in several counterattacks to recapture positions held be the fallschirmjagers. The lieutenant - colonel Cambel in a message to their commanders praised them for their activity commenting on that the Australians were feeling proud for they were fighting beside Greeks. After the decision that units should surrender to the Germans the 5th Regiment escaped to Arkadi. There it was melted away and those who where Cretans returned home while the rest spread to the surrounding villages, where they were put up. The 4th Regiment surrendered because its men were originated from the mainland and their preservation on the area would be troublesome. 6th Infantry Regiment Consists of 39 officers and 1.350 privates. Equipment unknown and nearly half of them were unarmed. According to the Newzealands the regiment commander, who was killed in May 20th, didn’t provide ammo to his men and regiment was melted from the first day. Newzealands managed to gather and organize approximately 200 men, who fought beside them until the end. 7th Infantry Regiment Consists of 27 officers and 870 privates. Equipment 850 Steyr riffles and 5 Saint Etienne machine-guns. It fought, as the 3rd Regiment, in the Heraclion sector. On 26.5 it was ordered to counterattack in order to recapture the Agios Ilias hill, but its attempt wasn’t successful. At the same night it pulled back and occupied positions covering the itinerary from Heraclion to Acharnes and Meshara. After the British evacuation it surrendered. 8th Infantry Regiment Consists of 40 officers and 800 privates. Equipment 500 Mannlicher riffles, 300 riffles of various types and 4 Saint Etienne machine-guns. Each riffle had around 50 bullets and each machine-gun 1.500. “The isolated red circle on the map” by Kipenberger, surprised the New Zealands with its activity. It fought until the end at the Alikianou area and thanks to its struggle Frayberg and his team managed to escape. This Regiment proved which were the abilities of the Greeks when they were under capable leadership and were equipped properly. Beevor states on his book: “Whatever happened, Frayberg’s force had already been saved by almost certain encirclement and humiliating surrender thanks to the incredible resistance near Alikiano of the 8th Greek Regiment and the armed Cretans”. After May 28th the regiment melted. Its men either surrender or took refuge in the mountains. The Evelpidon School of War The Evelpides at the time of the German invasion were on the heights near the Monastery of Gonias. They received their weapons, which they had initially given away so other groups could be formed and they fought until each one of the around 30 bullets that every riffle had, was used up. Afterwards, they pulled back and took a defensive position in Deliana. Nine Evelpides were killed. Evelpis Kostopoulos lowered a German flag from a position and later on he killed four fallschirmjagers who were trying to raise it again. A year later he was shoot by the occupation forces in Mytilini, because he was trying to escape in the Middle East.

As soon as I find some extra time I will refer to my sources,which have plenty informantion,not only about figures and numbers, but about the very same battle and narrations of those who were present,as well.

JonS your british arrogance will be confronted soon as the Olympian god will meet the mortals for one more time to set things right

I just saw your topic on April 29. I don't believe you'd expect to get the "BRAVO" from anybody by attacking me like this,while I am off town for vacations...

We surely don't expect the aithiopian cavalry equiped with swords to make charge on italian aircrafts,but I think the Greek Brigade(El Alamein was on their highlights)is worth to be represented.After all we beat the italians invading from the north (read some british and americans neawspapers of the time) and made hitlers troops to involve on a war with us,holding large troops of the Germans exteremely needful in the eastern front(among them "Leibstardate" Division if I am not wrong). The strategic assistance of the Greece to the Allies in the WW2,with the 900.000 of dead greeks,is something that even the most crazy polititian or journalist of the time would dispute... Only today the WW2-""""""neutral"""""" Turkey,the Bulgarians(Axis ally,then together with the winners againsts the loosers) and the Albanians(really,what did they do?)are among the most loveable allies of the todays winners.True,but then you don't have to seek for brave achievents,only hide and wait for the war to end...

I as the rest of the CM players am looking forward to the new release. I hope to be as historically accurate as the rest of the series for one additional reasson:I am from Greece and from an island very close to Crete so I know very well the difficult georgaphy of the area,simular to Sicily and Italy but different from north africa,which had played a major role on the operations there and would be difficult to be assimilated on the scenarios in my opinion.Also,in Crete there were many different forces consisting the defenders of the island including elements of the greek army(the main part of it was fighting in north africa),new zealands,british,local policemen and of cource the main force there was CIVILIANS and PEASANTS mainly responsible for the heavy loses of the Germans,as I was told by people who knew some of those who fought there.In most of the cases their weapons where agricultural tools,knives and old pifles,as they weren't given any weapons from the regular army in the fear that the cretians might revolt against the king of Greece.Well,I guess it would be quite sourealistic to depict hoes and spades as part of the Allied arsenal! However,I am sure it would be a great combat-game as the previous ones! Keep up the good work!

I personaly think that parts of the army such as sharpshooters,flamethroers and mines are the "icing on the cake". It is harder to used them in such way in which they will give the maximum of their abilities,but that's the real fun of CM.What's the point in choosing infantry,some tanks and a few AT guns all the time to achieve certain goals in specific fields when you could use a variety of forces? I like to experiment in various ways of using them.For example a good combination when defending in a mod trees invironment(with hills maybe)is anti-personel mines along with barbed wires in front of your possitions.Right after these,flamethrowers in a hit-possition when enemy infantry crosses the wires,and of course some infantry to support them(a few LMGs would be nice too).To be insured from incoming tanks it would be wise of you to place some antitank rifles and maybe a recoiless riffle or small AT gun as well. With that formation you would be able to hold a very large number of vicious enemy infantry troops for as long time as your reserves need in order to arrive and plug the hole.(It is supposed you have a wide front to cover). Of course there are uncountable combinations of that kind.Lets make the game more interesting, because in real war you don't always have the means that are the best for a job...and then you have to use your mind a bit more.

I personaly think that parts of the army such as sharpshooters,flamethroers and mines are the "icing on the cake". It is harder to used them in such way in which they will give the maximum of their abilities,but that's the real fun of CM.What's the point in choosing infantry,some tanks and a few AT guns all the time to achieve certain goals in specific fields when you could use a variety of forces? I like to experiment in various ways of using them.For example a good combination when defending in a mod trees invironment(with hills maybe)is anti-personel mines along with barbed wires in front of your possitions.Right after these,flamethrowers in a hit-possition when enemy infantry crosses the wires,and of course some infantry to support them(a few LMGs would be nice too).To be insured from incoming tanks it would be wise of you to place some antitank rifles and maybe a recoiless riffle or small AT gun as well. With that formation you would be able to hold a very large number of vicious enemy infantry troops for as long time as your reserves need in order to arrive and plug the hole.(It is supposed you have a wide front to cover). Of course there are uncountable combinations of that kind.Lets make the game more interesting, because in real war you don't always have the means that are the best for a job...and then you have to use your mind a bit more.

Thanks very much

In a relative topic it was suggested that Biltongs and Old Dogs maps are among the best anyone can find. Does anyone know the adress where I can download them?

Don't have a screenshot since it has been a long time since then. However I am playing a QB these days in which my Stuka bomber has on the target a T-34 for many turns but it doesn't attack...additionally I've noticed(in CMBB)many times that bombers(maybe only the Stuka type)are flying in a distant possition off the map for a long time so I guess the heavy AA guns have all the time they need to aim and shoot...

Whatsoever,I clearly remember a couple of ocassions in CMBO scenarios/operations in which a Flak 88 was firing against upcoming aircraft... (and this isn't a sarcasm...)