dgaad

You are throwing programming one hell of a curve, not history; and that is the point.

The fact that this is even possible while England and the SU are still in the game kind of puts the nail in the coffin of game balance and historicity doesn't it?

EB also has the opinion that Stalins killing of millions of Russian people, and the killing of the Polish officers in Katyn wood, was a totally correct and moral decision. I want Hubert to succeed, and I'd like to see this forum focus on discussions that give the greatest probability of that. I will not allow a person such as EB to pollute this forum with what amounts to a position in support of and justifying Genocide, and other crimes against Humanity. I disagree with the notion that opinions are harmless. I've met dozens of Russians in an academic and personal setting. They are regular people with opinions that are largely moral and just. I don't confuse these people with the twisted philosophies that have been espoused here. [ October 17, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

'snoozing'

A Englishman, an Italian, and a Russian were sitting around in cafe one day, talking about the travel habits of their compatriots. "When we Englishman travel," said the Frenchman, "We like to drive our Austin-Healys through the country side." "Ha!," said the Italian. "We take our Ferraris on our excursions and people just love them!" "Well," began the Russian, "when we Russians travel, we like to take our T-72 tanks."

Please believe me that I am not picking sides here or even seriously interested in these debates, my only interest right now is the game and discussions with respect to the game. In this case, and this is directed at EVERYONE, topic starters, responders etc., all I ask is that these discussions be voluntarily moved to the General Forums or I will move them there myself. Let's get back to the game Hubert</font>

Why did Stalin attack Finland in 1939 anyway?

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That's the spirit boys! Keep firing! Now, keep your eyes open for other misinformation!

I take exception to your taking exception to being a computer geek. If you aren't a geek than what am I? What is EB?

Jeff, ole buddy, I am rolling on the floor!!!!

Hubert : I totally agree that the discussion should be within the context of SC. Its unfortunate that some posters throw in provocations like "those Polish kulak landlords had to be physically eliminated to remove the threat they posed to the state . . . the mistake was trying to cover it up, not in the doing of it". That's like a Nazi / Skinhead coming in to this forum and saying that the mistake in the Holocaust was that it wasn't done openly. I'll be the last person to suggest banning anyone, and that's not what I'm going to suggest, even in EB's offensive case. However, you are the forum moderator and if you are going to let EB make such statements, then you have to let everyone chime in with their views too. Personally, for me, debating EB has been like a visit to the Stalin Mausoleum. It has been like time-travelling back to the 4th Party Congress and listening to person after person extol the virtues of the infallible Stalin. Often when I have read biographies of the Purge and the Gulag and the history of the Soviet Union I've often wondered how such a mass of people could fall for such insane lies as were perpetrated by Stalin's regime. I can now honestly say I'm a better historian for visiting the Living Museum of the Purge that is EB on this forum.

LOL!!! or, "I am Stalin now, kill everyone who opposes me!!!"

No offense Hubert, but this is far from personal. EB has engaged in just about every misrepresentation its possible to make, justified the killing of millions of people, and contends that the West is full of people who made no efforts against Nazi Germany. These are terribly insulting to anyone interested in the truth, or anyone who has any respect for the sacrifices of that generation. Its hard to remain silent in the face of these kinds of assaults.

Yes, I don't quite understand why anyone would want to rant at your post. You are only telling the absolutely proven truth about how Roosevelt wanted to sit back and not get hurt by the Germans while the Glorious Soviet People bore the burden of Hitler's armies.

I'm confused now, Comrade. I can accept that perhaps the Soviets executed a few Polish officers, but you yourself justified it by saying that they had to be physically eliminated or they would be a threat to the regime. So, let me be correct in understanding you : the failure was not the physical elimination of these kulaks, but attempting to cover it up? In fact, if I understand you correctly, the correct Soviet course would have been to physically eliminate all threats to the regime, such as the landlord kulak Polish officers, and then tell the absolute truth about it with Bolshevik Pride? I must say, this would have been a bold course, and one that Stalin himself would have praised.

I take issue with this Comrade. Are you saying that Stalin had the Polish officers killed? This is absolutely untrue, and a Western / German lie. In the first place, there were no Polish prisoners held by the Soviet Union. In the second place, how DARE you imply that the Glorious Soviet Revolution could be overthrown by a small group of elitist officers who are puppets of the West / Fascist conspiracy. These were Polish men who were not prisoners, had no position in the Soviet Apparatus, and were being held in Welcoming and Re-Education Centers. They had no opportunity to establish a Western saboteur network, so its absolutely insulting to the Soviet People that they were any threat.

Yes, the Westerners never did anything that really helped the Glorious Soviet People. The cowardly Westerners wanted the Soviet People to be killed while their own soldiers languished in warm camps in the US and England. When they finally realized the Soviet Union was going to crush Germany on its own, then they quickly acted to gain territory in France and Germany that by rights should have gone to the Soviet Union. Of course, Comrade. Why would anyone do that? You never provoke them, you only tell the absolutely proven truth.

And lets not forget Krushchev's traitorous act of releasing all those people from the Gulag, except for the ones working on the Glorious Soviet Space Program. And the 20th Party Congress . . . for shame.

Well, unfortunately Daystrom, EB is a "true believer". Every aspect of the truth will be re-explained and twisted around his own conception of the world, and he will do this until the day he dies. He will not be a very happy person, either, and in fact I pity him. There is some redemption for us, however, Daystrom. It seems to me like you might actually know something about Russian / Soviet history in a more scholarly sense. In this context, its actually a learning experience to talk to a real live Stalinist. I've never met one before and it gives a much better sense of the manner of thinking, wording, and conceptualizing that took place during the 30s, 40s, and 50s in Stalinist Russia. I mean this in all seriousness. [ October 17, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

Um, if you say so, comrade. Except Soviet crews, of course, comrade. Of course, you don't mean to imply that a Soviet aircrew would give a false report, do you? Except in the case of Soviet reporting and checking, comrade. We Soviets attack, root out and exteriminate all sources of lag, comrade, just as our Glorious Leader Stalin did. Of course, Soviet Air Forces don't need to plan for distortion because our forces don't engage in the capitalist / Western practice of distorting results for monetary gain. Very well put Comrade. We in the Soviet Union are completely immune from the weaknessess of the West as you mentioned. This suggests that some portions of Western military forces are not so prone to distortion and mis-reporting. We Soviets must work to insure that these elements of Western forces are deceived. It should be easy, since the West is essentially anti-humanistic and values life according to the amount of profit. We are so fortunate to have a system in the Soviet Union that is practically immune from such distortions, aren't we Comrade? Our leaders get absolutely correct reports at all times, except where spies and traitors to the people have sucummbed to Western bribes or threats. I see, so this realization just slowly accrues despite all the weaknesses of the Western system. I suppose things do reach a point where even the corrupt Westerners see the truth of things, even if only in increments. Fortunately, the Soviet Union has not only renounced the use of terror of any kind, but if we did choose to adopt that tactic, ours would be more effective because the people would eventually find out that we kill them only to liberate them. I think. What do you think, Comrade? Yes, the entire West is almost comical in the faith it puts in Strategic Bombing and Capitalism. As you have already pointed out elsewhere, Comrade, France did no fighting whatsoever, and collapsed because of the Western conspiracy to destroy the Soviet Union. I have unfortunately sucummbed to Western influence and bribes. I hope I can be rehabilitated after 20 years in a Labor Camp.

Here is the Stalinist Response : Everyone knows that the Katyn Forest was a piece of German propaganda. Those were Polish soldiers captured by the Germans and executed, and then quickly buried north of Minsk, and then supposedly uncovered by the Germans. This was a propaganda ploy. Everyone knows that Stalin didn't execute any Polish soldiers that surrendered, because of course the Poles didn't "surrender" to the Russian troops, they were welcomed with open arms. The Soviets had no Polish prisoners to execute. This is proven in many many studies conducted into the issue. It may be true that Stalin had a few Polish kulaks and other Polish-fascist saboteurs killed, usually in the act of sabotage against Soviet industry, but this is no different than the West executing traitors.

And, of course, it was also necessary to execute Bukharin as a traitor to the people, and put most of the rest of his family in the Gulag. Stalin was absolutely right to do this. Thank God, er I mean, Thank providence that Stalin had the great Bolshevik Beria working to root out and exterminate all vestiges of Trotskyism, Zinovievites, Rightists, and anyone else who didn't follow Comrade Stalin's General Line. ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS!!! [ October 16, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

Daystrom : actually, EB's position is not that Stalin was moral, but that he was "absolutely correct" to "find and destroy enemies of the people". Morality doesn't enter into it, which, Daystrom, you will ultimately learn is precisely the problem with EB. Read his comments in the "Things that would make SC a Great Historical Sim - Long" post. [ October 16, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

This was the best laugh I've had in about a month. I can't wait for a new Stalinist leader in Russia. You will be among the first sent to the Gulag -- if you survive at all.