dgaad

Hubert : I agree completely with your rationale. However, I'm wondering why in my games where I play as the Allied player the Siberian units take so long to show up. Where the Germans attacked in late 41 or early 42, I seriously did not get the Siberian units until spring of 43! I guess for an "early" German attack, you would have to allow for a withdrawal of the Siberian units based on relative threat to the Soviet Union regardless of the Japan question. However, for "late" German attacks, I just don't understand why it took so long for the arrival. Perhaps you could either post here or PM me with a more complete description of the algorithim so I can understand it. I did notice they showed up on the exact turn after I first had a ground unit deployed near Sverdlosk. Does the placement of Soviet units around Sverdlosk factor into the event trigger?

I have the licorice flavor.

Played using the "US IMPACT and HISTORICITY" mod. Fog of War off to represent Ultra. Options : Fog of war is OFF. Only way to conduct a strategic bombing campaign of any consequence. Also represents Ultra. PART I - CRY HAVOC! September 17, 1939 All Polish armies are destroyed though some corps remain. One Luftflotte is reduced to 7. The French recall the Algerian Corps from North Africa, where it will guard the Italian border. French fleet moves south intent on engaging the Italians if they enter the war. Britain destroys one sub, but too many missed attacks mean at least one wolfpack survives. Neither Britain nor France spend anything. October 15, 1939 Poland still holds out due to unaggressive German moves. Britain destroys the remaining wolfpack, but losing 5 points off a cruiser group in the process. No serious bombing campaign can begin until the British units have the benefit of an organized headquarters, so we must bide our time until sufficient resources are in place. That means we not only have to increase technology in the areas of Jet Fighters and Heavy Bombers, but we must be sure that no general committment of air forces takes place until a headquarters is purchased. Minor skirmishing in France, including an airstrike and attack on the well-entrenched Maginot. Algerians land at the Alps. All losses except in the FAF are replaced, and a corps is added to the Italian border. The Algerians will move up to northern France next week. French Syrian Corps moves to Egypt. November 12, 1939 Two more Polish corps destroyed, leaving only the Warsawa garrison. However, they have inflicted about 6 total points worth of loss to the Germans in both the armored and army forces. This is the point at which we must decide whether or not to make a serious effort to help France. All too typically, we decide to make it appear as though we are helping without actually doing anything. Britains 390 MPPs are held for Britain and future investments in defense of the British Isles and Empire. Britain invests in 1 Research Point for Industrial Technology. France increases DCR strength to 3, and the FAF is replaced to 8. December 10, 1939 Poland falls at last. No more 140 MPPs for Britain. Germany seems intent on breaking the Maginot defenses, having knocked one French army there to half strength. These losses are replaced, but the entrenchment value is now dangerously low. February 4, 1940 A turn of relative peace. The German seems occupied with replacing losses and building up a new tank group. The fleet continues to assemble just east of Gibraltar. More skirmishing along the Maginot Line. Thank God for Andre and his wonderful bunkers. Minor losses are replaced. French DCR now at 5. March 17, 1940 Germany invades the Low Countries and destroys the Dutch with airpower alone. British air sustained casualties last turn and this one, so we are pulling out of the air war now until we have more of it, and an HQ. All French units remain in place to gain the value of Entrenchment. We leave the Belgians to their fate and refuse to waste further MPPs on a lost cause. April, 14, 1940 THE BELGIANS HAVE TRAITOROUSLY SURRENDED TO GERMANY! I'm not surprised, but the headlines about this event seem to have shocked the French, who used 72 point type to announce it to their people in Le Monde. Meanwhile the French 1st Army was nearly destroyed by panzers, but held out with 1 point. The Germans wisely avoided the main French armies in the Maginot, where the entrenchment level is now 8. However, at the main point of contact, there are 3 French armies and the Algerian Corps facing the entire Wehrmacht. Not good odds. The French DCR is now at 11, for counterattacks if the Germans break the line -- which will happen, its just a question of when and where. More importantly, the Italians joined Germany. The now gargantuan allied fleet gathers at Malta for the big battle, assuming the Italians do anything. Britain has 590 MPPs which we are saving for a rainy day, or a German landing in England. May 12, 1940 Two French armies wiped out in northern France. We move the main armies from the Maginot and counter attack and wipe out one Panzer group. However, the French cannot hold out now as they lack the resources to replace either what was lost or what will be lost. An Italian cruiser move near Malta and get wasted by the French. The British battleships coagulate around Malta for resupply. Three Italian battleships hover near Taranto, and we leave them alone. I should mention that I left a substantial British naval force in Britain to guard against invasion, so the Italian navy is treated with care as opposed to aggressive attack. The British invest another point into Industrial Technology. June 9, 1940 As expected, French defenses collapse. Three French armies destroyed, though some German armies are weak now. In the Med, the Italian battleships moved down to the Malta area and sunk two French units, but our counterattack destroyed one Italian battleship and damaged one to near non-existence -- the third was undamaged. The British fleet is not without losses either. The eastern Med squadron is now approaching the fray, as yet unmolested. In France, the French army is down to a couple corps and what remains of the DCR. One German army was destroyed. So far, thats something on the order of 500 MPPs lost to the Germans, not counting incidental replacement losses. The French air fleet is operationally moved to Manchester, where it will aid the allied cause once pilots can be found to be a part of it. The Canadian Army, in all its Canuck-like glory, is now being transported to Manchester as well. We are preparing great festivals of welcome which include some strange entertainment known to them as Hockey. As it is June, instead of ice we are using a bog of approximately the same size as a "hockey rink". We hope they don't mind the small change. June 23, 1940 The Germans take Bordeaux, but the French still hold Paris and thus remain in the fight. And I use the term "fight" loosely here, except in respect to the French Alpine Corps, which has inflicted nearly a full army's worth of casualties on the hapless Italians. French counter attacks elsewhere resulted in absolutely nothing, but the 4 remaining Panhards of the DCR masterfully cut off the German Panzergruppe in Bordeaux with a complex manuver known as "Lets Get to Brittany as Fast as We Can". In the Med, we opt to destroy the Italian fleet over the other option of letting pieces of it limp back into port, where the Italian economy would be broken by the attempt to repair it. We reduce the Italian Sub to a few points, while destroying one more battleship and reducing the other to something in naval terms known as "barely there". Current investments in Industrial Technology have resulted in nearly as much success as the French army, so we continue to wait for costs to come down before investing in neat things like General Officers and their attendant staffs. The Canadian Army arrived in Manchester, but decided to skip the Hockey festivities. They said something about mud being really stupid. July 7, 1940. Amazingly, no French units were destroyed last turn. Consequently, French headlines have already proclaimed victory over the Germans. Our own assessment differs. However, the French now have 3 corps around Paris, while the Alpine Corps inflicts still more losses on the Duce's elite striking force composed of car fanatics and pasta makers. Frustratingly, still no progress on Industrial Tech, and we now have 783 MPPs in the pot. The more MPPs we get, the more sense it continues to make to wait until things become cheaper. We invest yet another point in Industrial Tech, which now stands at 3. The Med fleet allowed one point's worth of Italian sub to escape, despite our best efforts. The rest of the Italian navy is now located where the future Italian navy will be able to see it. The victors of the battle of Malta head for England to both repair and insure the Isle's security. July 21, 1940 France reduced to the one corps in Paris, and the Alpine Corps. Apparently the Alpine Corps has become such an embarassment to the entire Axis cause that the Germans sent two of their own corps down from the Paris area to deal with it. They remain dogged in their defenses. The French DCR has now embarked for and arrived in Manchester, where their Quebequois Canadien progeny have greeted them with an unusual display of non-affection. England is now defended by an odd mixture of people having no common interests whatsoever. The fleet continues slogging up from the Med, with a stopover near Gibraltar to increase supply levels. The British shoot almost their entire wad of saved MPPs into two more investment points, one each in Jet Fighters and Heavy Bombers. This was done based on the results of a study that contained exactly six words : "Bomb the Hell Out of Em" - Churchill. August 4, 1940 The Parisians have formed the Paris Communal Commiseration in, of all places, Paris, where the last French corps continues to hold out despite four separate attacks that netted the attackers a few prisoners who were apparently sick of all the comiseration. Entrenchments, apparently, really suck for the attacker. The Last Italian Sub was sunk in the Adriatic. This is also the title of a future movie an as yet unregarded filmmaker named Alfred Hitchcock is working on. The valiant Alpine Corps is no more. The Germans attacked it with the Luftwaffe and a panzer unit, which combined with promises of unlimited pasta and sauce induced the defenders to lay down their arms. The promise was promptly broken. August 18, 1940 France has at last fallen to the Axis. Loyal to the Allied cause remain the DCR, the Syrian corps in the Sinai, the Richelieu battleship squadron in Malta, and the French airforce. Part II - A Thousand Furlongs of Sea September 1, 1940 It has been a year of war. The general results have been, aside from what has already been discussed, are the total loss of the Italian Navy, but very disappointing research results -- that is, zero. The Germans seem to be preparing for acquisition of Denmark. We cannot know if this is to extend the flank of an attack on Britain, or merely yet another MPP binge. Yet, Britain is secured by the seas which have girt her, and the Navy upon them. We move Bomber command to within range of Brest, to attempt a bombing run on the port whilst the Germans attack Denmark as we expect this month. The Luftwaffe now has five full fleets of airpower. We also organize Cunningham's command in Britain to coordinate this new situation. September 29, 1940 Germany attacks Denmark and destroys her forces, but lacks the mobility to actually enter Copenhagen. We attack the Brest port, causing 4 MPPs in damage while losing one bomber point (at 20 points per). Don't criticize, its a long term strategy. If you also count the lost production, actually the damage is about even in economic terms. However, we do gain some small experience. October 27, 1940 German production with the surrender of Denmark is now 225 MPP. Bomber Command hits Brest again causing 3 MPP loss and reducing production there to an output of 3 (from 10). The Fleet returns to the Western Approaches. Industrial Tech research committment now stands at 4 points total, still no research result anywhere. November 24, 1940 German production = 236 MPP January 5, 1941 German army begins serious deployment to Hungary and Poland, so we breathe a sigh of relief. They continue to hit Dover with 2 air fleets. Owing to our rather stupid Welsh deployment, we can expect some casualties next turn. March 2, 1941 Serious deployments into the East now. We warn the Russians, but they laugh and say "Aha! But we have a Non-Aggression Pact with them!!!". Entire British airforce now deployed in Devon and Cornwall. For those of you who do not know anything about Devon and Cornwall, thats the area at the butt-end of England. Purpose? I don't need no stinking purpose but in this case its to continue pounding Brest to give Cunningham and the airfleets some experience. Pondering a Persian campaign. We need the resources. Must hit with overwhelming force though, so the campaign does not drag out indefinately. Sure could use the loot. We buy the Auchinleck HQ, preparatory to sending it down to Egypt for this purpose. We'll have to run the Med Gauntlet to get it there . . . wait, no we won't (see previous chapter). March 30, 1941 Foiled in my plans for a massive bombing campaign by a Luftflotte deployment to Bordeaux, where it covers Brest. The Germans now have 3 Luftflottes covering France; no target in Europe is open to attack by us. Looks like Persia, and the "soft underwear" of Southern Europe is now a better target. Or was that the "soft underbelly"? Churchill always talks like he's chewing on rope. "The Auch" is now on his way to our Middle Eastern holdings, where the troops have been engaged in such sports as "sand hockey", played with lots of sand and dung beetles for pucks. April 27, 1941 The Germans have treacherously declared Peace in the West and released hundreds of doves in a peace celebration in Neumark. Oh, they also attacked Yugoslavia. Apparently the Yugoslav King was impressed by our bombings of Brest. Or, he may have mistook Churchill's recounting of them for some statement regarding the size and availability of breasts in England; we still aren't sure at this point. From a military point of view, it was a really stupid move on his part, so that's the only explanation we can come up with. Churchill is now being given remedial speech impediment therapy in order to safeguard Europe from more excessively bad moves by other leaders. May 25, 1941 Over the past few months we have been getting message after message out of Bletchley Park which states "Germany Purchases Corpse". We can't understand why the Germans are doing this, since corpses are a dime a dozen, particularly in France. The great deployment of the Wehrmacht to Poland and other areas in the east seems to be halted, and the Germans are scattered all over the Balkans. We aren't sure why. We completed an operation called "Operation Sneaky" in which the fleet escorting "The Auch" to Egypt was diverted to bombard the Luftflotte units near Bordeaux. The operation has been characterized by leading analysts as having been very innovative but not terribly effective, which in simpler terms means we lost a great deal. A bomber attack on one of the Luftflottes there also resulted in 3 bomber points lost at no cost to the Germans. Half the fleet was also messed up. Oh, well, fortunately they aren't going to be bothered by Italians. However, at least one Luftflotte was reduced to 3 points remaining. June 15, 1941 The Germans are in no position to attack Russia now, as most of their forces are in Yugoslavia which surrendered this month. The 8th Army forms in Manchester, soon to be sent to Egypt. June 29, 1941 German units begin re-deploying to Poland. We move the fighters down to Egypt operationally, and withdraw from out Brest campaign, to the dismay of the now-exiled Yugoslav king. He's still learning English. July 13, 1941 German production is now in the 356 MPP range. Still absolutely no research progress for the British. Part III - These Are The Times That Try Men's Souls [Coming Soon!] [ October 21, 2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

If you do PBEM it, let me know how things went and future changes. I debated whether or not to give the Brits an HQ in the Med for the same reason I placed a tank unit down there. One starting at, say, 1 strength point. Maybe the Auch HQ. Anyway, I'm serious about toying with the sonar / sub tech levels so Germany can do some damage at least, even with Fog of War off.

Okay that works but it does wierd things to the icons on my desktop.

US Impact and Historicity Mod - Get it here I'm thinking of changing the Sonar and Sub ratings, and altering the strength of the subs, so that Germany can conduct an effective sub war campaign. [ October 21, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

After playing the demo countless times, and the actual game a few times (finally got my copy), I decided to make a change to the Fall Weiss campaign to give the US greater impact and certain other historicity changes. If anyone wants this mod, let me know in this thread and I will make it available on my website. "US IMPACT AND HISTORICITY CHANGES MOD" Mod designed to give US a greater impact on the war in Europe, as well as some other small historicity changes. US Changes : +2 research points when US enters the war (from +1 in the original). The US had excellent research capacity that was easily turned to wartime functions, the most notable being the Manhattan Project. 5% neutrality setting (original : 0%). US tends to enter too late. +400 MPPS to initial US production (original : 0), to represent the immediate gearing up of the US for war. (Note : its kind of like the US looting itself, just as it did historically when enormous amounts of consumer goods were immediately scrapped for military production -- like the seizure of the entire stock of rubber tires, new or used, in country by the government a few weeks after the war began). US initial Industrial Production tech level set to 2 (original : 1). Gives US same industrial production tech level as the Soviet Union. Italy : Neutrality setting to 60% (from 65%). Italy tends to enter before the Germans even attack France. Mussolini intentionllly waited to the very last second, thinking the war was just about over anyway. France : Algerian Corps given +1 experience. These troops were highly competent and highly valued. The Germans suffered a high proportion of casualties in battle against them in early June, 1940 -- after it already appeared to everyone that France was going to lose. All Maginot units given an entrenchement value of 3. DCR Tank Group added with a strength of 2, located south of Paris. It must be built up before its of much use, but it does reflect the enormous number of good tanks the French had, some of which were grouped into tank units instead of dispersed along the front. Germany : Luftflotte I and II given +1 experience. This represents the extensive experience the Luftwaffe had already gotton in Spain. German 12th and 23rd Corps, along the Rhine, given +2 entrenchment value. Also the 23 corps is relocated closer to the Rhine and gets river benefit. German Rundstedt HQ is given initial experience of 1 (original : 0 ) to represent the traditions of the Prussian General staff, which resulted in a large body of competent and experienced officers in the German army. Also, the theories of Guderian and others gave the German Wehrmacht a confidence in novel operations that other armies lacked at the time. The Bock unit was not modified, because Guderian's changes were opposed by more than half the General Staff ! German Heavy Tanks value set to 1 (original : 0) to reflect the novel organizing concepts of Panzer Warfare, which gave the Wehrmacht a concentration of panzer units and a solid doctrine on use of them in battle. All German Panzer units start with a strength of 11, not 10. Britain : Western Desert Force Tank Group added in Egypt with an initial strength of 2, making it essentially useless. However, it can be built up rapidly and saves the British the trouble of having to build one and run the Med gauntlet. === end ===

When you are in an actual game (not the selection screen) I notice there is no way to task switch back to the Windows desktop. Why? Is there a command switch that would turn this feature back on?

Soviet generals and troops who gained experience in a lost battle were usually rewarded with a Commisar's bullet to the brain, or a trip to the Gulag. So, the answer is yes. Seriously, though, its true that many armies, particularly the German and Soviet, but also true of most of the rest, did lose experienced officers if they "lost" a battle, even if they held ground. These losses were from the Increase Combat Performance Through Terror philosophy which permeated the Soviet system and, later, the German, but also due to military politics in the Western armies. General Mark Clark, for example, who was described after the war by Eisenhower as "The Man who Never Made a Mistake", was passed over for higher command because he was the General in charge of the Anzio invasion, which was widely regarded as a failure. General Patton was nearly cashiered for being considered to willing to throw away the lives of his men (which came to a head after the "slapping incident").

Immer Etwas : Surely in all your years you learned the difference between a True Believer and a critical thinker? The most eloquent appeals to reason, liberally sprinkled with respectful odes to the True Believer's belief or culture, can at best only result in politeness from them, not a recognition of the falsity of any of their dogma.

In the Version document, you state : "- adjusted the SU transfer of Siberian Troops to an open period instead of only when SU existence is threatened during the winter months. (This one I really thought about, but I think it would be reasonable since I don't think the original transfer was made due to weather but rather because of the demands of the military situation at the time)" History : The so-called "Siberian Troops" were actually about 35-40 divisions of well equipped Soviet units that had been deployed in the Maritime and siberian areas to guard against threats from Japan. In 1937 and 1938, Japan and Russia fought two battles that did not bring about a war between them, both of which the Japanese lost, and which featured Georgi Zhukov himself as the master strategist. After these skirmishes, the Soviet Union felt that Japan remained a potential threat. This view was not without justification, since postwar documents reveal that, for the Japanese, the gigantic question of who to make war against devolved into two basic choices : European powers in the Pacific, or Russia. The choice made is well known, has more to do with oil than any fear the Japanese had of the Russians resulting from the prior skirmishes. You are correct that the choice to withdraw them (most of them) had nothing whatever to do with weather. During July through September, the Kremlin was kept relatively well informed about Japanese intentions through the Lucy or Sorge spy rings, which included agents directly in the Japanese Foreign Ministry. By the end of September it had become clear to these agents that Japan had no intention of turning her military forces against the Soviet Union. Just in the nick of time, too, as the Germans launched a new offensive which came within 100 miles of Moscow only a few days after it started, and eventually to within sight of the spires of the Kremlin by December 5th. It took a few weeks for Stalin and his camarilla to be convinced of Japanese intentions, but the serious situation at the front left little choice. The consideration to withdraw the troops was based on two conditions : 1) Security in the knowledge that Japan posed no threat. 2) A state of war with Germany. Your Rule : Your rule allows transfer of Siberian units during some kind of "open period". Could you be more specific? I propose that you again change the rule to reflect more accurately the situation obtaining : Transfer can occur in any month in which the Sovier Union is at war with Germany, and the date of the game is beyond November 1, 1941. The reason I am suggesting this change is because I've played a couple of games now, and I find that the Germans typically don't attack until late 1941 or early 1942, and because of the way the rule works the Russians don't get the siberian troops until sometime in 1943, by which time the Red Army is almost completely non-existent anyway. This game result is not very historical, and seems more of a "game balance" or "drama" issue than faithfulness to history. [ October 21, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

So, you are the son of an apparachik!

I once knew someone who worked for the Governor of California. This person discovered that there are quite a few people in government at the state and national levels who played and understood the implications of gaming, and a few who specifically had been SPI gamers and even designers in their youth.

The Italians occupied British Somaliland soon after the Italian declaration of war on June 14, 1940.

There are plenty examples of industrialization in history, and the level of industrialization in the Soviet Union in 1941 was of great assistance to providing the means for the people of the Soviet Union to eventually defeat the Nazi armies that invaded them. The question is whether it was necessary to do things like outlaw private plot farming to do this. The question is whether it was necessary for 10 or 20 million people to die to achieve that industrialization. I've read about the economic issues facing the Soviet Union in 1928-1930, and I frankly can't see the reason it was necessary to tear up 1/4 acre private plots that were worked during off hours simply to provide some extra vegetables for the family. I can't see why it was necessary for 3 or 4 million people to be sent to the Gulag to die a slow death. The economic plans of Bukharin, Zinoviev, and others, were likely to create as much heavy industrial capacity by 1941, certainly more personal wealth, and many more people still alive. [ October 19, 2002, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

I have this vision of the son of an apparatchik who spent his childhood years playing with hundreds of little stick figures charging the fascist imperialist foe yelling oooRRAAAA-pobeidaaaaaaaa!!!! Currently residing in the squalor that is Kaluga, frustrated by the lack of jobs for True Believers, talking the ears off of anyone who doesn't think that Uncle Joe was, in fact, the closest thing to God on Earth. While he may not know it, he's the main reason Vladimir Zhirinovsky and the Russian LDP has only 1 remaining vote in the oblast. [ October 19, 2002, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

Truely amazing, isn't it folks?

Nice attempt, Melchett. Futile, but nice.

Frankly, EB, I don't need your rewards or compliments. What I do need is for you to make one post that does not insert twisted political jibes at "the West." Even in this one, you failed to do even that. Why not say "Lack of oil is something that is overlooked in many analyses", rather than specifically saying "the West" in particular has lacked in this area? This is what objective analysis is all about. Its not about criticising one culture's historical research efforts, its about discussing history and trying to determine or understand what actually happened. Discussing the limitations or benefits of one society's research efforts is another topic altogether, but you, EB, cannot help but comment on it every time you post. This inserts a political aspect into your posts, and draws you, me, and the community away from what we are really trying to objectively talk about here. And, by the way, my source on the lack of oil for the Italian navy comes from Gerhard Weinberg's "World at Arms", a western source that is widely published in the West.

The history of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe non-cooperation is a prime example of what NOT to do in war. Goering is famous for his statement that, with regards of control of aircraft "Everything that flies belongs to me." And he meant it. While there seems to me to be little question that inter-service rivalry would have been a huge problem for Germany in the Z-Plan fantasy, Luftwaffe non cooperation did positive damage to German naval efforts that were actually effectuated in the war. The Kriegsmarine's attempt to get search planes, resupply planes and other aircraft to support the sub war were mostly failures. A large portion of all German subs sunk were destroyed by allied airpower on the way back to ports in the Bay of Biscay, when they could have been protected by Luftwaffe deployment there.

Is it at all possible for you to make any kind of comment at all without inserting jibes at "the West"? Try to contribute ONE post that is not in some way aimed at pointing out the limitations of "the West", or the "appeasement" of "the West", or the limitations of intellect in "the West." Might I remind you, EB, that it was THE WEST that DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY on September 3, 1939, NOT the SOVIET UNION? Might I remind you EB, that the SOVIET UNION was doing not "appeasement" but ACTIVE AND SUBSTANTIAL SUPPORT of Nazi Germany at that time which INCLUDED shipping OIL, food and other material to Germany, and which included military assistance and political guarantees to Germany? Try to make one, just one, post or response that speaks OBJECTIVELY, instead of POLITICALLY. [ October 18, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

Actually the Italian Navy codes, which relied on paper ciphers (i.e. a paper code book that was regularly re-versioned), was never broken by Allied intelligence. Sometime in 1941/42, the Germans persuaded the Italians to use German electric cipher machines, whereupon the code was immediately broken and accessible to the British. [ October 18, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]

As for scenario design along these lines, keep in mind that (and one of the great flaws of SC in my opinion) the Italian navy in 1942-43 was almost completely immobilized due to, not fear of the British, but Oil. The diplomatic correspondence between Italy and Germany makes numerous references to requests for high-grade oil to replenish the Italian fleet supply. These were never approved by the Germans, who had other demands on their oil supply, and consequently the Italian fleet lay at anchor in Taranto and other harbours (this immobility contributing, in part, to the fleet's vulnerability to various forms of attack, including suprise air, sub, frogmen attacks, etc). The flaw in the game is that none of these considerations apply; fleets are always mobile. It was hoped by both the Italians and the Germans that the 1942 Fall Blau campaign would be successful at capturing and using the Maikop and Caucasus oilfields sufficiently to generate enough oil to not only meet German shortages, but also to replenish the Italian fleet. This was one small reason among many for the participation of the Italian 8th Army in Fall Blau.

Who was talking about stalking off? As for the rest of your post, the wargaming community does contain its share of Nazis and Fascists, the guys who always like to play the Germans and secretly believe that if they had been in charge the Germans would have won, and the world would be a better place. I actually like playing these guys not because they are easy to beat (they are) but because I hope in the process of losing they are learning the lesson that using purely fear, terror, hate, and violence to gain political power is a losing proposition.

The long-term plans for German expansion are well known and contained in numerous documents, chief among them are the long term naval planning program that went beyond just what was put on paper. In Sum, the idea was that, after the fall of the Soviet Union, Germany would have the resources to build a blue water navy. This new navy would be used to continue the reduction of British possessions, including in fact Canada and, later, the United States. German naval planners assumed that any attempt to invade Canada would bring the US into the war, so the navy would have to be strong enough to defeat it. The general plan for a cross Atlantic campaign followed the idea of taking the Azores and Iceland, followed by landings in North America. These plans were more than just paper, too, as I have said. Keels were laid for the beginnings of this blue water navy, which was to include aircraft carriers. In addition to German construction, it was hoped that portions of the French, Italian and even the British navys would be available for the operation. Most of the construction was terminated in 1942, when it became clear, at least from an economic standpoint, that the Soviet Union was not going to collapse anytime soon. Indeed, because someone at the Naval Ministry forgot to cancel an order, four gigantic battleship engines were delivered to the Kriegsmarine in, get this, 1944!!! [ October 18, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: dgaad ]