Glider

I recently had a truck and a wheeled armoured car bog in the middle of a road. Far from amusing.

M84 is not capable of firing ATGMs.

Be very careful with 'rounded' turrets, they are modelled in a much more complex manner than the simple 70mm/rounded description would lead you to expect. For instance, 80mm/rounded Stug IV upper hull is rather easy to penetrate. On the other hand, you could grow old waiting for that "flat hit" on the 83mm/rounded Jagdpanther upper hull.

I was not contradicting your statements, I was just trying to provide additional data

A minor issue - don't you think that it is possible that the German 76.2 round in this case is undermodelled for the 0 degree impact angle (instead of being overmodelled for 60 degrees as you say). Personally, I'd expect more than 0mm penetration difference at 100m.

Yes, that was my interpretation, too. While some T-34s were undoubtedly captured intact, others had a few holes. Battlefront probably decided that on the average this warranted a 5% decrease in armour quality.

Thanks, I was beginning to question my perception of reality

July 1943

I am also checking the very same info screen... in June 1943, I think. I have some work to do right now but I'll post screenshots in 20 minutes or so.

My guess is, if there is actually no hardwired German advantage and the above penetration tables apply, that German and Russian T34M43(late) would be about equal at short ranges, but due to the ammo quality advantage (see penetration tables) the German ones would be much better at 1000m+.

Hm, for T-34M43(late) my CMBB shows a difference in penetration tables. Soviet T-34: angle 0 - 81 (100m) ... 51 (2000m) angle 60 - 40 (100m) ... 31 (2000m) German T-34: angle 0 - 81 (100m) ... 60 (2000m) angle 60 - 50 (100m) ... 40 (2000m)

Just checked, PzJg I can kill a KV (the best armoured 1941 version) with a tungsten shot out to medium ranges even from the front side. Heavy 28mm AT rifle can kill it with a side shot.

Sorry I just think KV-1s in 1941 situations are very similar to Tigers in 1943. And 150mm will kill a KV much more often than T-34/76 will kill a Tiger. HE of that calibre produces some strange effects.

Pioneers, tank hunters, in fact any kind of German infantry, 150mm guns towed or self-propelled.

Nobody disputes that, you can win with T-34/76s against Tigers, decisively. But Tiger dominates 1943 battles just like KV-1 dominates 1941 ones. Have no time for TCP/IP, if you are willing we can PBEM, I can be reached at ivanX@cg.yu (remove X).

Barring IS-3

I accept what you say, but I never, ever, in 200+ CM games I played, saw a solution like this one work. If I have Tigers I keep them carefully covered by an infantry screen, panzershrecks, other tanks and, particularly, AT guns covering flank approaches. I expect the same from my opponents. That is why I would never try something like this as Russian. Simply, if one or two AT-guns or panzershrecks open up you lose 6 T-34s and you lose the game, badly, in just one roll of dice. That said, I regularly play against Tigers with T-34/76s... but I remain aware of the fact that the presence of Tigers, even just the possibility that my enemy might have them, dominates the tactical situation throughout the game. There is no Soviet tank from 1942 on you can say that about.

One hidden German 75mm AT gun would blow this solution to hell. People I play usually have 2-3.

Mostly I play Russians and, until posts like this remind me, I tend to forget just how much my style of play is defined by Tigers and similar heavies. It all starts with purchases, I buy 57mm guns since I expect to have to deal with Tigers. Since the guns are expensive I purchase a Guards inf battalion with organic 57mm guns... already my inf purchase options are severely restricted and I am yet to see whether my enemy actually bought Tigers. If SU-85M or SU-100 are available, I will buy them, because of their decent armour, although they are good for AT work and not much else. Further, a pioneer platoon is a must, they are pathetic as infantry but at least they have ammo depth. Then the game begins and I have to hide my main assets very carefully because, God forbid, there might be a Tiger sitting on the yonder hill and it will get enough target practice anyway, thank you. Once I verify that my opponents has Tigers (or, in my last game, a King Tiger), the entire battle plan begins to revolve around that fact... already your purchase has mutated because of *possible* Tigers, now your battle plan is being deformed beyond recognition. For me killing Tigers is mostly a matter of frustrating your opponent. You hide your 57mm guns (or whatever you have that can kill Tigers) and you start initiating attacks at places the Tiger cannot possibly see. Turns pass, your opponent begins to fret about the Tiger sitting idle and being just "a waste of points" (rarely taking into account the problems just the possibility of Tigers being bought created for you) and, near the end of the game, if you are lucky and your infantry is winning despite all the drawbacks, he moves the Tiger forward to get off a few HE shots. That is the chance you worked so hard to get. Now, as often as not, your 57mm gets two or three side penetrations, the Tiger turret rotates and kills the gun. [ April 03, 2005, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Glider ]

During some periods they are available as integral parts of Guard infantry battalions. That makes them cheaper.

Yeah, took us two hours to roll over that particular unit. Three full-strength Guards tank brigades plus arty regiment, separate tank regiment, motorcycle battalion and various other units. 200+ tanks at least. A beautiful campaign, I never had more fun playing CM.

Geordie of the Blitz club beat Fionn during recent Vulture's pure armour CMAK tournament: link

Were you defending here, near Grun? If so you stalled about three of our tank brigades... for a time

Well, I'd risk it... not with a squad, but if a King Tiger came reasonably close (100m-150m) I would be willing to risk a platoon of pioneers, running squads from various directions to within about 25m. They really don't take that long to use their demo charges, particularly if they are better than veterans.

It doesn't matter so much. A tank not supported by infantry, even a King Tiger, will find pioneers to be deadly in any but the most open of terrains.