Jim Harrison

LOL no there is a bright spot in my life thank god I am not related to dalem.

LOL leave it to a marine to eat carp

I find it sad that I have to erase over half the senario's that came with the game because they are such drivil, they purport to be historical but in fact they are just gamey. I hope we get some good game senario's soon to add to my arsenal as I don't care for the "hopless situation" ones which only serve to prove how tough it was for the german on the eastern front. NO I am not a designer so save your carps I couldn't care less about them.

heheh Peng Challenge only proves that even the village idiots need some sort of relief

LOL having lived in Vermont for 30 years prior to coming "home" to Michigan I can tell that Vermont is FULL of wargamers and some damn good one's

as to "if the germans had won in the east" the facts are that Joe Stalin DEMANDED the allies open a second front or suffer the consequences of Russia signing ANOTHER non aggression pact. Actually without Stalin's threats Normandy probably would never have been an option, but with it the stage was set. BigJim

Not to argue but I think the Germans found the 37mm ineffective in France vs the Char Bis and got the name "door knocker" at that time. I do not dispute the fact that it was probably used alot as pointed out by some posters. I guess as far as game balance is concerned I am just curious as what you guys like??? Some ideas here seem say "yeah lets play WWI trench warfare, you be the Brits and charge into the German machineguns" Hardly what I would like to play. I guess I am more looking for the "what if" kinds of senario's where different tactics might have changed the out come.

I am surprised to find GE units armed with this weapon since by the time of the Russian Front they KNEW the piece was ineffective against all but VERY light armour (they found out in BoF). I just played popguns and elephants (well sort of I quit game when relizing that the GE forces had NOTHING to stop the Russian armour) and was amazed to see that the designer assigned 37mm AT to the GE side when by that time 50mm AT were the standard (I believe).

Hmmmmm Now I got to find the reference to 88 setup, it seems to me that a trained crew could setup/tear down an 88 in something under 10 minutes. I gotta find the reference tho. BigJim

Seems to be alot of experts on combat posting here??? I wonder how many have actually been in a combat situation themselves?? I am sure there are more than just one vet playing this game, I know I am a vet and I enjoy the game. No computer simulation can ever portray the real fear of combat or the massive confusion of a firefight. To ask the programmers to develope such a game is not really a fair request, this game comes as close to the command and control problems as any war game I have ever played and I think the next one will be even better. Some abstractions are inevitable any war game and this one is no exception but it is head and shoulders over whatever is second BigJim [ August 26, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Jim Harrison ]

Without getting too technical, if engineers can explode mine fields in this game then why not arty??? It seems to me that well place arty would also destroy mine fields, in my case the engineers were not under fire the whole time they walked past the mine field, this seems to indicate the only way to find them is the "gamey" techique of running some less useful equipment over the mines. Sorry to those who don't like the rehash of I guess an old item but I have only had the game for a few months so all is new to me. In the manual BTS seems to take great pride in indicating that they have tried to eliminate "gamey" stuff from these games, then I run into stuff like this and begin to wonder.

too little allied arty and waaay too much axis arty. Why not just give the axis alittle more arty and the game can be over on turn one. The map is great the points allocations are awful, at this point in the war the allies should a MINIMUM of 2 v 1 odds. There is no way to get into the fight as the allied side since all approaches are covered by TRP's and TONS of axis arty, and all the roads are mined.

Whats up with mines????? TWO COMPANIES of engineers walk down the down the road pausing every other turn and NOT ONE see an anti-tank mine field in the MIDDLE of the road. IMHO this SUCKS, and needs to be fixed, there is NO WAY two companies of engineers tasked with clearing a road will miss those mine fields unless by design they don't search in this game (in which case mines should be thrown out of the game). I am royally POed when I lose a tank to mines after the engineers have spend five turns on the spot clearing. [ August 01, 2002, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Jim Harrison ]

Thanks guys, I figured there were good reasoning behind the allocations I just couldn't figure it out. Good reading there Silvio, thanks for the thread reference. BigJim

Ok Mike but if effectiveness in battle is the criteria, how can US stuff cost more??. I can see no way that the Pershing tank is more effective than say a Panther or Tiger, to say nothing of King Tigers or Jadpanzers??? I suppose tho that your right about game balance. BigJim

I just played B&T's training battle #1, what surprised me was that at 3000 vs 5100 pts the German was able to mount a 2 to 1 odds????? I am wondering why the US equipment is so much higher in buy points than axis equipment??? History would seem to indicate that we were able to produce TONS more equipment than the axis and at a much lower cost (since our equipment did not measusre up to axis stuff on a one to one basis). It would seem to me that at least US equipment should be less costly than axis stuff???? If this has been discussed a million times forgive me I am relatively new to these boards. BigJim

excellent senario, the only thing I could gripe about (which is a pet peeve of mine) is anti-tank guns in the attack, give me 2 more tanks instead Nice map and good battle, I got a minor as the allies and a draw as the Germans (my german attack got scattered due to artillery). Of course if the AI couldn't lay smoke anywhere it wants I would have done better as the German.

No Kevin "by the book" there is only one bridge to cross, since the "cover" for the infantry only lends itself to one of the three. Unless you have "recon" telling you those 2 open fire lanes are not covered you can only "safely" approach the nearest bridge to the start point. The briefing tells you sounds of equipment have been heard, therefore the commander must believe the worst and figure AT guns at the least cover those fire lanes. The "book" is the army field manual issued to every officer in the army and I believe now even to some command nco's. I believe the WWII versions of it are available in book stores but I am not sure.

Kevin while I applaud your effort to make a "fun" senario, what I ment by proper tactics, is that any recon commander would approach the situation given his "start" position to use the "bounding" movement utilizing the best cover since two clear "fire lanes" are apparent at the start, these must be avoided until such time as you can determine the enemy position. Because of the above situation, the player must move his infantry first to determine the enemy positions, unfortunately in this senario he doesn't have the time to do that properly, nor the troops to cover his vehicles at the same time (by design for sure). Therefore the commander is forced to "recon by explosions" ie his half tracks must draw the fire and of course die to find the enemy (as a former military type) I find this "gamey" since in the real life situation it would not have happened. On my first attempt I do as I was trained to do, I send out my infantry in advance of the vehicles to find potential ambushes (which I did and took out the crack panzershrike at the first bridge), the problem is that with only 20 turns my infantry just comes into contact and the game is over (because I used text book approach). Frankly the game does not really lend itself to these types of actions, since to balance it you had to add really too many vehicles for a recon unit. What you really have is an under strength cav unit or over strength recon detail. I am not sure how to accomplish your goals, any other way than you did (given the game constraints) I just found it too unreal for my tastes. I may have been abit crusty in my first post since I was rather insensed over the fact that "book" tactics would nor could not prevail in this senario. Don't take just my views into account, many supporters here have taken a much different view from mine.

Well Scott you have every right to disagree with me as I you (thats what makes horse races), I have tried several B&T senario's that liked alot, in fact the one you pointed to was nicely done. Jim "BigJim" Harrison

Scott your references to "cavalry" being "recon are somewhat distorted. Cavalry in WWII was fast light infantry (usually mechanized) and while it had some relevance and uses as "recon" that was NOT its prime mission. This senario does have more of a "cav" flavor than a real "recon" team, but with the terrain as it is, the light armor is all but useless in the time alotted. The fact that after numerous attempts you were able to figure out the "puzzle" just doesn't make much headway with me, I want senario's that reward "proper" tactics and NOT puzzles that have to figured out. I defy you to find me one historical account of a recon mission tasked to take an objective (thats just silly on the face of it and definately not the definition of recon). As to the fact that you don't like my tone and try to characterize my opinions as that of a moron, is nothing more than not being able to cope with what you KNOW is true. I am sorry that all the senario's attempted are not perfect, it would be nice if they were. I am sure what was attempted here was done with all the right movtives for "game" play, it just doesn't fit with the historical over views of this game. As to "sometimes we must make do with the equipment we have" statement, I can only deduce that you have never served in the military??? Since any commander worth his salt would never lose his men on purpose in a lopside affair. Sorry but your arguments just don't wash, I know you want keep your "status" with your friends and thats ok, but don't tell me what happens under fire unless you have been there.

No problem Scott just add arty to this one on about the 5th turn when the "recon" unit discovers it is up against company strength. nothing wrong with my post except maybe your ego, but to give the recon a mission to take out company strength dug in troops is nuts. They have done their job the moment they discover the enemy strength, and deserve a win NOT a loss. This is nothing more than "puzzle" with no time to figure it out, and my comments are directed to the real life situation REGARDLESS if is fictional or not, I love when you guys justify any stupid situation with the fact that it is a fictional senario. Fictional or not some things in WWII remained fact and to my mind the word fictional simply means the battle never really took place but might have, and therefore PROPER tactics would have been employed (in this case the recon would have called for arty support and dug in or boogied out). They NEVER would have tried to take an objective in that out numbered condition. [ July 29, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Jim Harrison ]

I got it on my second try (not that it was worth it). This senario is a typical "rush to be ambushed" senario. You are given NO time to make a "proper" approach, all avenues of approach are covered by heavy machine guns, anti-tank guns, and or anti-tank personel. I am sorry but in real life this attack would NEVER take place, it is just a gamey cutesy senario which in NO WAY tipifys the way a real recon would be done.

Heheheh it all has to do with the tank crews rating, anything at reg and below will do strange things under fire or even during combat not under fire (combat jitters???). I have had tanks refuse orders and move elsewhere numerous times, and always was a green or regular tank crew. The only time a vet tank crew refuses orders is when it sees something you did not. I actually like it, it is one of the things that makes this game great. In fact this is the only war game I have ever played that tries to simulate those combat pressures.