OG_Gleep

Slappy, Your right..I will rework the post tomorrow. Ozzy -edit- It was late so ... -edit- The spirit of the post was to get some general topics out, then move on to specifics. Slappy was right, in some of those, more specific information about the situation would allow for a better answer. But I did want to get general situations talked about at the engine level. As for the other stuff, I am not asking you to give your plan for beating Hitler, merly asking how you would handle really really general situations. If you don't want to share how you would go about moving a tank to bring fire on a suspected enemy positon and get it out alive...by all means. What I was looking for was a conversation starter.....hense the name of the topic and my last part of the first post. Basic situations, leading into more specifics. But Slappy is right, and at the core you are too (but you really did misunderstand), and I'll re work it. But not tonight, I'm tired =) [ August 15, 2002, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Sorry, there was a thread I was reading that said to get 18-24 squads and I mixed the two up. Anyhow, doing the correct math you suggested to have 72 squads, 6 VG Companies + 6 VG Platoons. Each wave would have 36 squads per wave. Now take a Large map. Normally people divide it in sections because its so big. I tend to divide mine in much smaller sections, but lets say 3 sections. So for each section, you have 12 per wave. Is this how you would do it? Those 12 would cover their alotted area until they made contact? Or would you overload a flank and sweep across the board? Where do you advance your infantry to? Normally if you get good terrain, you can make it to the middle of the baoard in most places, without being exposed to too much fire from his elevated positions. Can you go through how you would run your infantry? I know their objectives is to locate the enemy, but how far apart do you keep the squads while you move? Using the village scenario, there is quite a bit of open land. Do you start sneaking/crawling once you reach a certain point on the map? Anyhow would love to hear more specifics on executing.

If the answer is dependant on month, please state what you would do in different seasons. These situations are not season specifc, like picking an army list would be. But if your reaction is different due to the seasons, post what you would do in each. What I am looking for is not what I would do, I am looking for what players other then myself would do. And as for the open ground question, this is not a situation where I am rushing an enemy positon. It is merely I am trying to get to an objective. I am taking fire from across the map. What I am trying to get at, is not what I would do or what gameplay testing shows, its what you guys as players would do. The reason I asked in terms of orders is, its really specific that way. Right, but this is only one tile of woods. Was trying to see what you would do and how you would get back there. This for example was the spirit of what I was looking for...ie: What you do in situations, but specifically these. [ August 14, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Der.. your right. I gotta rethink that post lol. Was thinking 6 platoons. [ August 14, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Re-Worked Post ---- Ok for all of these situations the scenario is this: Date Dec 44 Weather Clear Map Large Village Mod Hills Mod Trees Forces: Unrestricted -Edit After reading Ozzy's Post Type: ME Unit Qual: Med Objectives: No overall battleplan unless stated. The questions are really "As a general rule" type questions. Instead of scenarios, I'll try specific questions. I thought the scenarios would give more detail (I was really wrong btw) 1. I have a Hummel(Substitute any HE slingers) behind a hill. If I move to the top of the hill I will have LOS to a suspected enemy position. I want to Fire on that position with one or two rounds, then get back out of LOS to avoid any return fire from the enemy. If I return to my original position I will be safe from all enemy fire. How should my orders look like? #2) When your troops have fired too early from cover (lets use woods), but you still want to hold on to that piece of terrain, but you don't want your squad getting torn into by everything that has/will have LOS to it...what is the best way to break contact and LOS with enemy units? I assume based on your posts that this depends on how deep the woods are, and what date it is (Dec 44 in this situation). I was looking specifically what orders you would give ie: crawl back 3 tiles then sneak to another position in the woods 3) When your infantry is fired upon by a field gun more then 800m away, and there is no way to block his LOS by natural terrain on the map, is there any way to break his LOS by movement orders ie: crawl ? 4) It seems there are several very popular schools of thought for movement in specific situations. Generally do you prefer move or run in open areas that is LOS to enemy setup zone(s) (ie: one of their hills)? The distance to the zones however are over 800m. Once you reach cover what is your prefered movement, sneak move or run? 5) This is going to be hard to word, so don't flame me if I am not too specific or didn't take into account something. This goes to execution. On your first turn of a large QB given the above settings, after you have placed all your units, and have descdied on their objectives, how do you advance while trying to keep out of LOS. Especially armor. Little background for this question.... On all of my last large QBs using the setup above, there are lots of places to setup my armor so that they are out of all LOS (Behind a hill) behind my infantry. I can advance in most places a good distance without worrying about being spotted by the raised positons on his side of the map. The problem is that there are areas where you just can't avoid being in LOS of those hills. Again this is hard to explain without screen shots, but each side usually has a few hills on each flank that can see atleast 50% of the map. The other 50% is hidden. 25% of the hidden area in the respective setupzones. 25% of the exposed area is right in the middle. I don't really care if a few of my infantry squads get shot up crossing these fire zones, but if the enemy descides not to fire, I have no way of knowing if the area is covered. If my infantry make it fine, I need to move my armor up to support them. I have no idea though, if I stick my head out, is it going to get shot off. Any thoughts on this? If this is still too general, let me know and I'll try to re work it again [ August 15, 2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Just to clue in people who are joining this thread, it is really an offshoot of my other thread "Help with Large Scale Armor Battles ". Red and JasonC I know were part of that conversation, I just wanted to clear that up. Follow the link above (I know this is a re-statement, but a lot of people don't read the whole thread =P) Back to the topic at hand, Red to answer you directly, JasonC and you both hit what I was looking for. I believe Jason was the first to mention it in the other thread, but he suggested a infantry heavy force supported by tanks, rather then a Tank heavy force supported by infantry. This went against everything I was led to believe, atleast on large maps. I have been playing exactly that setup with every new battle (ie: Village, mod-mod) and still don't see the slam dunk in all of this. That is why I made this post. We covered the unit selection, but nothing was mentioned about the execution (well it was briefly, but I wanted to get into detail). He went into specifics, you went into theory, which are both right on point. I did a lot of reading, especially at the site you posted (Article supporting your position on the whole Hetz vs Jagd IV vs Pz/70 vs Pz IV situation) and everyone agrees that the way to go is Infantry supported by Tanks. What led me to this point was a major reeming by a PBEM opponent. I brought Close Combat tactics to the CMBO battlefield and got taught some very hard lessons really really fast. I didn't want to make the same mistakes ever again. That said you guys have been awesome. It is always better when people disagree about opinions. People disagreeing about facts is annoying, but when people disagree about opinions, you are usually able to get a much better picture of the situation. A room full of echos, but you still only have one voice. Anyhow I just wanted to say thanks. For everyone else, if you have any ideas on how to effectivley use an infantry heavy force vs an assumed armor heavy or even combined arms force, chime in. The scenario is: 5000 points ME Village Mod-Mod Unrestricted (The side we are using is infantry heavy) Dec 44 (sorry forgot) [ August 14, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

I have played tons of games (vs comp) and I have played with the editor ALOT. But what isn't published is how the numbers translates into gameplay, and especially how they translate vs human opponents. You can gain this info in only two ways.... 1) Learning by playing Human opponents 2) Asking other players This is true of 99% of any multiplayer game. Anything that is not printed in the manual is learned by these two methods. There is little to no benifit to playing the computer other than learning the game interface and controls. That said, one of the reasons I like to play Germans is for the SMG Squads. But, playing the computer, I got used to calling them SMG squads. The VG thing through me. Also, I didn't know why they were competitivley better then other infantry. Vs the computer they are really not. You could put together a force of fixed guns and beat the comptuer. Anyhow, everything that has been posted so far has been great stuff. Also Veteran players have been debating about certain points. How would I possibly come up with those answers by playing a smaller battle? The only reason imho to play a smaller battle is either for a quick game, or to refine small unit tactics. More points, more units, more theories to test out. Anyhow, I have been taking these posts into CMBO every time anything new, or relavent has come up. Expect that game file soon!

Specifically talking about VG's and infantry..... What is the difference between the Fulliser and reg VG in terms of gameplay(not numbers, but what they translate on the battlefield)? Why take them instead of FJ's, which I believe have more firepower. VG SMG firepower is 279 I believe, while FJ's are 324 with 2 extra men. Also why not take Sturmguppe instead of either? Is it cost? And thank you everyone that posted. This has helped clear a few things up. I just started playing PBEM's at the same time I started playing QB's. In my first large scale battle vs a human opponent I got knocked around pretty bad using poort tactics and selecting a 3rd rate force. This has helped a great deal. Now I just need the experience and some refined tactics and I should be set. Any body want to play a large battle using these settings? =) [ August 13, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Speaking of studying figures, has anyone published a FAQ, or any kind of research regarding the numbers and/or units?

I should have posted more info on what I was looking for. I assumed people had read the post I was talking about. Since the post I was talking about was very specific, I didn't want to distract people from the topic. That said, this was brought up and wanted to explore it a little. http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001188 Read a few of the posts and you will see a number of people suggesting using infantry "Platoons" (Squads of 8-10 men) and not AT infantry to hunt armor. The situation was a 5000 point battle, Large map, mod-mod. Sorry for the confusion, but I was really looking for a discussion on this specific tactic, and how to execute it. BTW to specify something, according to the manual squads will enter close combat (assult) within 20m. Be it other enemy infantry (h2h), Guns (h2h/assult), or Armor. Atleast according to the manual.

In my other post, someone mentioned this tactic. I would like to hear peoples thoughts about this. Also, what infantry platoons are best suited for this? What are you tactics regarding this? Lets assume the setup is med-med on a LARGE map. Please indicate what dates you are using for the said tactics.

My friend set it up, and didn't remember what month he setup. I don't know how to find the date ingame. Only way I know how to be sure of date is in teh setup. We are starting over and I am going to set up the specs. Since I am going to setup, suggest a date for the battle with some kind of strategy. I don't want an advantage, that's not what I am asking for. I really need help in large scale armor conflicts. I am pretty good at infantry tactics, but I don't know the units well. Especially the armor. I don't have enough experience.

Ok, lets assume that the date is early. I don't think that there are pazerfaust-100 yet. I just checked the setup phase and my guys have Panzerfaust-60's. Tree cover is very heavy, the map is large. What do you guys suggest in this specific case. One person said IF there are PZ-100's use heavy infantry, there is not though. One person said use tons of Jagdpanzers, and some HE's. Another said JagdPanzers are hard to use, get a few JagdPanthers instead. Ok, the map is really large. In this specific scenario, what is the best forces, and what should I do with those forces? Ie: Stay on your initial line, and wait for the enemy to come out, sneak forward with infantry then bring up the armor..etc etc etc.

This may help redwolf. Unit Qual is set to high. This is a good friend of mine, so the game is quite causal. I just told him to send me the file. The only reason I know any details at all is because I wanted to answer the questions raised on this board. Details I know: Map: Large Type of Battle: Meeting Engagment Points: 5000 Units/Service: Unrestricted Tree Coverage: Moderate Hills: Moderate Setting: Rural or Farmland German Force Selection ALL Vet: 9x Jagpanzer w/skirt 2x Hummel 3x StuH 1x Hertzger 1x Lynx 2x 251/9 75mm HT 1x Puma 2x 105mm Spotter 1x Para Bat. 2x 75mm AT There I think I added a couple more things just to even out the points, but that covers most of it.

Armor, meaning Armor setting in the QB. The point breakdown is: Infantry 2600 Support 1560 Vehicle 1000 Armor 5000 Artillery 1000 You seriously think it is a good idea to hunt tanks with infantry on Large Maps? Especially if he is allies? Allies have really good infantry killing armor. Also, what if it was unrestricted? Would you spend more then half your points on infantry?

I am having trouble with Large Scale Armor Quick battles vs a human opponent. I know my first problem: I am not picking effective forces. Any tried and true rules for 4000+ point games? Any thing you won't go into a large battle without? Feel free to go as basic as you want here. Assume I know nothing =) Second Problem: Overall tactics. I tend to divide my forces in to 3 or 4 large armor groups. There is never enough to cover the whole map, so I buy some AT guns, and some AT Infantry and set them up on the flanks or pockets I can't cover. This actually has worked quite well for me. The problem I have handling the armor. My Armor Squads tend to get chewed up fast. I am playing a PBEM right now, and he is really handing it to me. Within the first handful of turns, he decimated two of my squadrens while taking minimal losses himself. I advanced and he brought his armor out in pockets to their flanks and chewed them up. I am about to start a 5,000 pt battle with a good friend of mine, but don't want to repeat the mistakes I have made. I am Germans, the map should be set to Rural, Mod Tree, Mod Hills. Don't know the date or conditions other then its a meeting engagment. There are no rules or stipulations as far as unit selection. What units would you suggest as nessisary? How much points should be spent on each unit type? I have a tendancy to prioritize in terms of firepower. Heavy tanks are more important then Med tanks, Med Tanks are more important then Light tanks, etc etc. What should be the general plan? Do I keep my forces together? Or do I spread them out? Do I keep my armor still until my infantry spots him? Once Armor is sighted...do I bring all my armor to bear, or just move in one to do the dirty work? Anyhow you see where I am going with this. By nature, I tend to like small, clean scenarios. The large ones tend to get too chaotic for my tastes, so I never played them on my own. Also, I love infantry battles, so the majority of my solo game play has always been infantry conflics, with a little armor for support. I know there are probably tons of posts covering this subject, but its 5:00 am, and I have to get some sleep and pick my units when I wake up. Anyhow thanks in advance.

I am playing CMBO only for PBEM's. I have so many cd's now that its a pain putting them away and digging them up. Anyone know of a NoCD patch/crack that works? And for those that think this is only done by pirates, you would be wrong. Many people do it for exactly my reason, and TONS of people do it because their CD-ROM is incompatible with the game (Don't ask me how that happens in this day and age). Anyhow any help would be great.

Anyone have any updates?

Many people brought up really interesting points about the Blitzkrieg. Every so often established military battlefield tactics become obsolete due to technology, and every so often an Army demonstrates better combat theories in combat. Such was the case with the Blitzkrieg. Unfortunately the "bad guys" were the ones who came up with this one. The Allies came to the table ready to fight WWI again, and were basically caught flat-footed. This is why the results were so dramatic. If the Allies had developed their '44 tactics in '34, there might not be a Combat Mission, or any WW2 game for that matter. With their technology and military ideals being equal to their enemy in '16's, Germany couldn't do in 4 years what its '40's There are some doctrines that are applicable in every conflict. I think the Blitzkrieg (the broad underlying concept of combined arms) is our modern day Sun-Tzu lessons. I wonder what the next evolution in Warfare will be. I don't think, and would even go so far to say as: I know, that we haven't seen an evolution since WW2. I believe we have seen several revolutions. Taking Nuclear Stigmata out of the equation (I don't think the end of the world is a viable military tactic), I can't imagine what the next WW1-WW2 level evolution in warfare will be. What do you guys think? I am leaning toward something that would come out of a Sci-Fi book, or a bad Star Wars Episode.

Ok...Army only 1x Moto Inf Platoon 1x Security Platoon 1x Hetzer 1x SPW 250/9 1x 75mm Howitzer 2x 75mm Inf Gun 1x 50mm AT 1x 75mm AT 1x TRP Allies - 1x Sherman 1x Self-Propelled Arty 1x Halftrack 1x Scout Car 1x Infantry Company Additional Support Arty Spotter Mortars Results were pretty much the same. Lucky Mortar round took out the 75mm AT on the 5th turn, but by the end of the 2nd turn all but one of his vehicles were piles of metal (the HT made it till the very end). His FO took out another gun, but he only had a few shots left. Allies: 101 Casualties 18 Captured 3 Mortars Destroyed 4 Vehicles Destroyed Me: 7 Casualties 2 Guns

Yeah you were right, I forgot to switch the date when I started my 2nd battle. I just finished a battle with the proper date. German OOB - Infantry - 2x Mountain Troop Platoon Armor/Vehicles 2x Sd Kfz 7/2 1x Hetzer Support 1x 75mm AT 1x 75mm Infantry 1x 50mm AT 1x 20mm FlaK Allied - 1x Sherman 3x M3 Halftracks 1x Rifle Company Additonal Support Zooks LMG's .50 cal's Reading through my "Gun positon" thread I followed people's suggestions, having each gun cover a limited area. Unfortunatley for my 50mm on the right flank, they had all but one vehicle on the right flank, plus most of their infantry had a shot at the right flank. Fortunatley I positioned all most all of my guns/armor in a "hull down" position. By the end of the 2nd turn all of his armor were in ruin, and I had only lost one crew member on my 50. Anyhow it was a pretty easy battle. 142 Casulaties 20 Captured 4 mortars 4 vehicles vs 9 casulaties 2 vehicles (lost one of the AA HT's to a Platoon leader at 100 yards. Must of hit the gastank, and the Hertz to a bazooka that was in a house I thought was clear. I sent my 3 vehicles out to mop up the infantry that was massed in the center. After these two went up, I got pissed and charged 4 squads at them. Result was 4 squads eliminated, and 4 captured, for the loss of 1 man. Poor boys couldn't move due to my guns and the remaining HT surpressing them.)

Hrmm you know you may be right. This was the 2nd battle. I accidently picked the wrong map so I restarted. I quite possibly could have forgot to turn back the clock. I'll give it another go. On the SMG infantry point... Out of 3 squads, only one is effective at any range. Through many games, I have limited them in my personal OOB's to Reserves, City fighting, Defenses (Ambushes), and any time I feel I can get them into Close quarters. In those situations they are the best I have seen. Put them in a foxhole, and tell them to shoot it out and they fall short imho.

After reading this thread today, I thought I would give it a go. I don't know if I had the exact setup right, but here was my battle. Date: July 44 Time: Day Weather: Clear Army: 700 points Place: Village Tree: Light Hills: Moderate Type: Allied Attack Units: Combined Arms OOB: Germans: All Vet Armor - 1x Hetzer (Suggested in this thread) 2x Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm FLAK Infantry - 2x SMG Platoon Support - 1x LMG 1x 75mm Pak40 AT 1x 75mm Infantry Gun AP 2x 50mm PaK38 AT 2x Target Ref Allied - Armor/Vehicles - 2x M10 TD 1x Scout Jeep 1x M5A1 Halftrack Infantry - 1x Rifle Company 1-2x Rifle Platoon (?) Support/Art - 1x 105mm FO 2x M1919 MMG 1x .50 Cal HMG ?x 60mm Mortars Battle - The Village was located in the middle of the map, the concentration of buildings being highest in the middle. On the Right flank there was a wooded area that had a clear view of the allied staging area, that wasen't blocked by allied terrain(ie: their wooded areas, buildings etc.) I placed one of the 50's on the right flank and supported it with the Hetzer. Behind the woods I placed one of the 37mm FLAK's. I positioned it to cover the a small area of the left flank, the woods covering it from all other angles. I placed all my infantry in the center, spread through the village in each of the buildings. Knowing that SMG squads had limited range, but were devistating up close, I planned to hide them till the last minute. I also placed the 75mm AT in a wooded area that was right next to the road, on the side of the lead building. This would protect against armor that made it through to threaten my inf. I also placed the last Flak in a funny position. On the Middle-Left flank, behind a housing block that was right next to the road, I positioned it so it could see in between two buildings. This was to be in reserve, moving to any trouble spots...at the same time it had a very very narow field of fire to take pot shots at any units that crossed it (seriously it was a straight line leading from its gun to the other edge of the map). On the left beind a hedge shaped like a V, I placed the remaining two guns, the 75mm Inf, and the 50mm AT. These had clear shots at the right flank, and due to a hill, had limited view of the center and left. But they were ready for anything that poped over the hill. Battle - Being confident after reading through this thread, I was ready for any threat. I didn't count on the fact that my guns would be murdered so fast. Within the first 4 rounds, I had lost my entire right flank (AT, Hetz, Flak) and the 75 in the center, with inflicting only minimal damage, 1 m10 TD. The Allies were riding high, and sent ALL their rifle squads charging forward. By the start of turn 5 their lead elements were 30m from the 1st bulding....the HeavyMG squad from 2nd platoon. At this point I was sure of defeat, but descided to play through so I could nag you guys for poor advice =). The next 6 turns were pure slaughter. The German SMG teams unleashed hell on the poor Allies. I have always been a fan of SMG teams, but this sealed it for me. Another big surprise was the remaining FLAK gun. He managed to knock out the remaing allied vehicles/armor, and inflict major pain on the infantry. At turn 14 I sent 1st End results - Major German Victory Allies - 142 Cas (29 Kia) 36 Captured 3 Mortars Destroyed 4 Vehicles Men Ok 7 Germans - 26 Cas (5 KIA) 2 Guns 2 Vehicles Men Ok 74 Notable Units Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm 17 infantry 1 Halftrack 1 M10 TD 1 Scout Jeep Heavy MG Squad 32 infantry 1 captured 3 casualties SMG Squad 32 infantry 3 captured 2 casualties Mistakes - I have a post pending addressing this, but I always always always put my guns in a position to cover a wide area, because of the fact in MANY of my earlier games I placed them in areas where no enemy ever came into their fireing arc. That said, as soon as my guns opened fire, they were met by every gun the allies had it seemed. My infantry tactics worked well. On turn 8 I turned my attention to the platoon who had taken the right flank (wooded area). The FLAK, and the two guns on the left flank pouned the area, while I sent in a SMG squad to wipe them out. Poor guys couldn't do a thing while my boyz walked around and calmly shot them. If there is any chance I will be fighting in close quarters, I have no problem relying on SMG Platoons. Anyone else a fan? [ July 01, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

One of the hardest parts for me is the setup phase. I am a big fan of fixed guns, but constantly second guess myself. All you guru's, what are some placement strategies for fixed guns? What do you look for when placing guns? How many guns minimum should you have? I have done this many times....I have a big gun capable of wiping out many enemy armor units (like an 88). I obviously want to position it in a place where I can do the most damage. If I place it in a spot where it has a limited field of fire, but is protected, I run the risk of armor bypassing its field of fire. At that point you have a nice piece of dog poo. If however you place it in a spot where it has a lage field of view, you have to opportunity to engage his armor regardless where he goes. BUT, as soon as you fire the first shot, his entire force will open up on you. That said, I need some advice from you CMBO Ninja's. When dealing with fixed arty, what do you do to ensure you can deal out maximum damage, and what do you do to ensure that the gun and its crew make it to 1946. Thanks