Desert Dave

But, when has it not? In what State, and at what time in History, did politics not play a role in ANY extended war? Also, there is one hell of a difference in bombing strategy and IMPACT (napalm, Jolly Green Giant & gattling guns) now, than there was 60 odd years ago. No doubt more bombing could have been done, but Rolling Thunder and the other air ops absolutely devastated the countryside (civilian terror was out of bounds, as it should have been -- had LBJ tried that, the entire world would have revolted against USA). The fact remains: Otto stated what he may well believe to be true; however, IMO it is most assuredly not the case, and so I stated the opposing viewpoint. That misbegotten war will not be over until every American who was then of a certain age -- is no longer on earth. Sad to say this, but hugely true, and it has as much to do with the ongoing "backlash" to the tremendous social upheaval of the 60s -- in the protracted "Yankee-Cowboy" (or Red-Blue) culture wars that presently roar & rage, than with prissy distaste for the particular details of the war in Nam.

In America, only the citizens, through their elected Congress, can declare war and decide when and if it is finished. At least that's how it used to be, until craven cowardice became the general rule of the day. The Commander is a civilian, as it should be. Or do you want another Sparta? This canard that some! damn! body! -- usually yellow and conniving politicos or war-protestors, somehow "lost" that war is still making the rounds, and it is just as ludicrous now as it was then. "The people" of the United States decided that it was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. That simple.

OK, but it never hurts to keep a favorite element of game-play at the forefront of the designer's mind, true? Especially if you are convinced (as I surely am) that the Variants would boost the Strange & Mysterious (... psychological research has consistently demonstrated that humans are especially intrigued with anything NEW -- just ask Madison Avenue, and in fact there is a small area of the brain -- hard-coded since cave-days, to ACTIVELY search out and rejoice! in new stimuli -- this insures that we are very ready to adapt and evolve, and co-incidentally, this is why it is so very difficult to get "substance-", or any kind of abusers out of their "ever-new-making" and extremely blissfully received "habit") and provide infinite replyability! :cool: A long way to go, and not just Nuts & Bolts, sorry. I said "reply-ability," and meant to say "rePLAYability," which only goes to show, sometimes we somehow say what we sort of mean, when we intend to say what we actually mean, etc. Though, infinite reply-ability is surely a desired outcome for any discussion forum... [ October 02, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

Now that I have played for awhile, it does seem as though the intercepting force suffers a disadvantage, no matter when, or which side is attacking. :eek: This seems counter-intuitive, since the attacking force, whether Strat Bombers or regular Air Fleet (which includes some fighter-bombers) should be MORE prone to taking losses. After all, they are focused on hitting the target, and not on defense or CAP. The interceptors are concentrating on taking out as many enemy bombers as possible, yes? Sure, there are escorts, and inherent air defense of a certain class of bombers (or FBs jettisoning their load) but my sense (and I may be inaccurate on this... Hubert?) is that the defender is penalized to a greater degree than what should be expected in a "normal" bombing raid? If so, then if this was tweaked, then the problem (pretty well documented so far, I have noticed) of inexperienced units taking too much damage could be solved?

Insofar as solo games, there are definitely ways (though limited) to use the editor to reach a fairly competitive equilibrium. I have fashioned a Campaign '39, where I give Russia and USA level-5 industrial tech, and 3 chits each in the unused research box, along with a bonus of 500 MPPs for USA at start (true to form, AI usually buys an air fleet). Also, Britain gets 2 IT, and 2 chits. As for units, France gets an extra armor, and Britain another Cruiser in the med (so that the RN can withstand an Italian onslaught -- that, along with +1 experience makes for a genuine Med naval war challenge). For play balance, Britain loses one Carrier in the Atlantic, and Germany gets Graf Spee cruiser, which allows for a better U-boat campaign. Also, Germany loses a Corps, and gains a Strat Bomber (representing the great effect of the Stukas early in the war). Then, I play at Expert +1 (since IMO, the +2 experience level makes for a very unrealistic game). Also Russia gets +1 on Anti-Tank, and that along with IT level 5 gives them a tremendous ability to withstand the early blitz. All in all, this allows a solo game that approaches the actual events, though, once Moscow is surrounded, the outcome is assured (... assuming no Allied success with the invasion of Fortress Europa, which, given the premature landings, and knowing preparation possible, is usually the case). In this regard, I would prefer to see a tweak made where the Allies will wait (on a random timetable) for LATER landings in France, and some possibility of an amphib invasion of North Afrika, or even Sicily. In that regard, perhaps the AI for Britain could eventually reinforce Egypt. :cool: The solo game CAN be edited, but this would surely be easier if we might be able to edit those countries not yet involved, so that each of us could bolster those areas -- especially Russia and Finland, that aren't quite up to the German onslaught. Certainly, the proposed changes in an upcoming patch will help, but I still would like to see a better, more comprehensive editor. That way, each could "balance" the game according to their own liking, no matter what changes are enacted, or not enacted.

Good idea. And here, I would like to revive another suggestion I made in a thread topic way back when: Let's have many Variants for SC2, yes? Many of the newer board-games have added random card selection in addition to dice & tables/charts (as Monopoly has always had Community Chest & Chance). And John Prados' recent (and new) Third Reich game (the first edition beyond A3R) also makes great use of variants. :cool: So, you could have random research, as well as interesting occurrences in many other areas, which could be grouped into historical AND a few reasonable "what-if" events. They would be time bound in that some of them won't happen beyond a certain date (as, German Z-plan). These could cover everything from diplomatic outcomes (ie, General Franco leans toward Axis, steadily increasing possibility of entry -- will provide 1 armor unit to Germany) to tactical problems due to weather (ie, on winter turns, a chance that all offensive operations east of Poland will have some minor penalty for the attacker... assuming we don't get detailed weather effects in SC2). These variants would include some research boons and boondoggles and they would surely make the game much more exciting and re-playable.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure either, but, I don't think there is any camo effect. However, not that there aren't enough suggestions for Hubert to mull over already, but this would be a great inclusion in a future game. :cool: It doesn't take a great deal of experience to spot units (... or does it?) and certainly the time frame, and size of each unit would suggest that the player/field-commander would know the GENERAL disposition of the foe. However, they would never know the exact number of opposing troops, and they would surely have more difficulty in heavy forest (light forest and hills not modeled anyway) or especially mountain terrain... cities, I don't know, maybe spies or underground pipeline would enable more precise knowledge. But, I really like this idea, since it would provide just a little more FOW and therefore, enhance the "mystery" of the game.

No doubt in my mind either. And so, perhaps here is that long lost solution to Russia's initial weakness, which they are never really able to overcome? Sure, there are any number of ways to balance the game, so this needn't be first item selected to tweak, but the experience factor plays such a huge role, that it cannot be easily disregarded when attempting to solve the balance dilemma.

Excellent point sogard -- so good in fact, I am thinking it needs a separate thread. Imagine how difficult it is for Hubert to sort through all the anecdotal evidence (... when he has his own, and the Beta Boys' experience firm in mind) and try to solve the apparent imbalance in the game. :eek: It is never clear what the comparative strengths and weaknesses are of the two PBEM opponents, just as it is never clear what levels of difficulty & experience the various solo players are confronting. Here, we can provide more exacting evidence, with care taken to state the specific game being played... some already do this, but it would be helpful to Hubert I would guess, if we all would try to be more precise... assuming he is taking notes, of course . After all, which are you mostly coding to? The solo players (which is likely over 80% of the games played) OR -- the head-to-head competition. Huge difference, yes? I would say that the AI makes too much use of the Air Fleets -- in Britain this to prepare for the immenent invasion, but in Russia, since they are so very inexperienced and accordingly, can do so little damage to the attacking craft, that perhaps the AI should buy land troops first? That way they wouldn't have to pay such exorbitant costs to replace the great damange done when there is an interception against those experienced (and probably L2-4) attackers. Any other ideas?

zzzztt....krklkkl...damn Toys 'R Us radio... what was that... Bill? What's that? Yer sittin' under a rain cloud? Well, borrow Colonel Kurtz's umbrella, for the love of... zzzztt... Somebody's got to have -- a what? An ONION? It's the middle of a horrible war... and you guys are making -- Vichysoisse? ... krrkkl zzzt... Come in, Bill... No, no, I MEAN -- come BACK... in... your mission is hereby cancelled... krkkrlkkl... over & out!

Today! They are Heros -- heads held high! 'Midst a cheering throng! ... But wait, Here comes! America's Corporate Braves! And soon enough O! no joy in Mississippi Mudville -- Those Red-Birds can do little right, And listen if you will! While they sing the wrong song.

And now you can root, root, root! for the Cubbies and Black Sox, instead of the Toronto Blue Jays! Which is akin to saying that someone has (Biblically proportioned) boils breaking out all over the body, Instead of merely -- an incessant, incurable athlete's foot. (last laugh department... where O where did my once feisty Cleveland Indians go?)

CvM: Your coming to grief is the usual state of affairs, which is why we have, ipso facto: Prozac, late-closing Taverns Witch doctors, Shamans, Oracles at odd places like Delphi, crooning Spirit Mediums & advice columnists, Cartoons (... see: Charlie Brown forever & always trying to kick the football that our darling Lucy holds... ) Self-help schlockmeisters, avante garde Political movements, rowdy Talk-shows, Sports publications, Altars in churches, and certainly not least, Specially crafted house-rules for games. Pack up your bindle or kit-bag and hit the back roads and you will find even more shameless solutions, which are so very old and arcane (and not meant for a polite society) that they couldn't be so simply told... (BTW, did you discover Lao Tzu?)

Once co-conspirators, and now... a hesitation, an entropy, a falling away... Confounding variables! :eek: (... your parable reminds me very much of a Zen story, wherein the Buddha is asked about an arrow that has pierced the skin of a fallen boddhisatva -- he replies: Do you need to know the archer's name? Do you require from what bird the feathers are plucked, or how the tree was cut to acquire the wood? No, no, gentle warrior, it is imperative to FIRST remove the arrow, lest you bleed to death while all the wondering... ) Good points. My rationale for Industrial Tech can be succinctly stated: this is a HEAVY, and highly Applied investment -- in money and resources, so no matter how it is perceived, it nevertheless should require more TIME to realize the utilitarian results. How it ultimately effects game-play is another matter -- I was concerned to place Industry in a separate category from "theoretical research," in that it is the foundation of all else. When I first got the game, I marveled that Industrial Tech would not only cost the same as the others, but that it could be so easily gained. Sidebar: In my game against Bill, we had a house-limit of 3 chits per area, and 8 max. No matter, even with that restriction, I was able (as Germans) to achieve L5 Industrial Tech by end of '41. This was THE decisiive factor in the game. And so, you (and Bill) are calling attention to the shortcomings inherent in this co-conspired (... probably there are others in the cabal as well that I have omitted, merci ... )NO RETURN , which, likely, is not the perfect solution. I shall be flexible enough to re-consider as well, BUT, I am convinced that the road to salvation lies in this very area... I shall think about it some more and try to add something unique to the discussion...

In games, in ancient Greek blood feuds (the Furies applying miasma) and real Life and everywhere -- the Nemesis Factor, eh? In SC2, I wouldn't mind seeing some loss of prestige for a pointless attack, say -- Allies taking Ireland or Portugal, and this could take the form of MPP penalties. After all, there were billions of other folks not directly involved in the conflict who could very well effect how much (indirect, circumspect) assistance a Belligerent might receive in the future (... even ol' Papa Hemingway patrolled Cuban waters in his fishing boat looking for stray subs... :cool: ). Such things as intelligence, sabotage, underground elan and a shipment of wheat or ball bearings might well hinge on the good or bad karma associated with these sorts of "pointless attacks," and it would be appropriate, I think, to impose some certain penalty on those who do so. :eek:

Glad to see that a few others are beginning to agree with my original idea of having NO RETURN on Industrial Tech investments. Thinking it over, I -- as German player, would probably be unwilling to "waste" 1000 MPPs on a tech possibility, with NO return. Perhaps 500 MPP or even up to 750 MPP, so in effect this would somewhat curtail the rapid I.T. advances. And this in turn would make L4 & L5 cost more (as Bill Macon would prefer) since you may well achieve some of those advances BEFORE L5 I.T. is in effect. In fact, Industrial could lag behind to the extent that you would have, at least, SOME extra cost for the superior models/equipment. Even if it didn't MOSTLY happen that way, it would likely be enough to cost the "Tech-happy Wizard" a moderate amount of Xtra MPPs. And, in general, I would be less likely to rely MOSTLY on tech advances, if there were a 50-100 MPP or even 1/2 penalty for moving these around. After all, the Air or Panzers are a certainty. The Tech is not so sure (not even allowing for pure happenstance). Therefore, the NO RETURN may well solve some of these fast advances. If I am playing an opponent who I suspect will still pay full fare for the tech possibilities, then I know they are not ALSO rapidly expanding their tactical forces.

LOL! I can envision a real determined game of "Go" with St Peter there in the deep shadows of the Pearly Gate, and if I win -- all! my sins will be forgotten as if they never existed! (... and, alas, that is a fairly long list... )

BlueMax 1939: FWIW, my feeling is that the banner that you fly (in the form of your personal signature) DOES matter. There is no stronger proponent of free speech (and keeping BIG stuporous BROTHER -- O U T!!!) than I am. However, the SS is simply not welcome by many, and there are good and sufficient and historically documented reasons why that is so. You may play any WW2 game and include SS units, as I will do -- since wargaming is a CATHARSIS and not real life, BUT you cannot so indifferently offend a sizable group (not merely sogard) of folks that you are trying to have conversations, discussions and spirited debates with. My advice: change your signature. And of course! you may disregard, but consider all the hard feelings (even if not publicly expressed) that you thereby cause... ask yourself a very serious question -- is this identification... worth it? After all, the same group you so blithely champion ALSO murdered Gypsies, Drunks, the Genetically Impure -- AND free-thinking college professors and students. Just... think about it.

Of all the proposed tweaks, this seems to me to be THE most important. Even if the Russian ability to add reinforcements and keep more late-game MPPs is solved by adding capitals, it is STILL imperative that the Allies are able to launch an effective invasion of the Continent. They will be hard pressed to do this if the German player is alert enough to hone the spikes in the Fortress, to include 4-6 subs, a Strat Bomber or two, 2-3 experienced Air Fleets (these stationed far enough south to avoid Brit interdiction) backed by a HQ, and a plethora of sacrificial corps. The Air can immediately be operated in as necessary. Many are the games when I have completely foiled -- not the one (... premature?) invasion, but the second as well. This is partly due to AI's tendency to rapidly deploy the RN & USA navies just west of French coast in order to sink the threatening subs. Problem is, I am then able to so decimate them with combined Air and Sea forces, that 2nd invasion transports are mostly sitting ducks. :eek: Solution? As many have asked -- make the damage for each encounter less, so that repairs might be made and 2 or 3 or 4 rounds of tense, nail-biting naval encounters are then possible. This may have to include tweaking the Air Fleet's strength against naval vessels. And, increasing the dive % by 10 for each tech level is important too. And in counter-measure, the Allied player needs to seriously consider whether to invest in the antidote -- sonar, early enough to actually achieve it before invasion of Continent (and so should AI invest in this... in general, AI does not do much in tech investment, which puts it behind the 8-ball in the long run). The early invasion still seems premature -- would it be better for AI to be instructed (... politely of course, as H.A.L. can be moody and even feisty at times, and then look out!... ) to WAIT until 1943 at least? which would make the one invasion -- even if RN and USA Navies are bruised & battered, a better chance to succeed. And so, less damage each encounter, better dive % and adjusted Air power might well solve this specific area, thus, much of the entire game balance.

Other than chess and Go and some traditional stand-bys, the first war-game I can remember playing was AH's "D-Day"... and playing it and playing it... at the back of the schoolbus my friends and I, we'd huddle 'round -- ignoring the girls in their sassy pony-tails and droopy bobby-sox and REALLY snug cashmere sweaters (... well, I guess this is finally evidence that I didn't altogether IGNORE them ) and plan & plot various strategies... and this carried over to class-room, and I can remember one time where the Teacher strolled by and discovered! that I was drawing up elaborate invasion plans of France in my notebook -- what to do about that nasty Panzer Lehr armor unit, etc, and so she grabbed it off my desk and carried it to the front of the room and held it up as an example of misbehavior... this could lead to "juvenile delinquency" I think she told everybody... and then she looked at it and got this quizzical expression :confused: -- there was mostly NATO symbols of infantry and armor and the like, and she didn't have any idea what to say next... until some wise guy asked her quite innocent-like -- "Say, Miss Winsome, what's that about?" So she glared at me and I could only slide down in my chair and shrug... (truth to tell, I had a crush on her and felt bad for my faux pas) utterly unable to say what it was -- THEN, and so, I try to make up for that tongue tied confusion -- NOW... :eek:

Well, looks like I should elaborate a little on my proposed solution for -- "too much, too much, too fast, too fast." There are basically two kinds of research: 1) THEORETICAL, where the gee-whiz experts speculate and propose new gizmos & gadgets, with appropriate how-to's and blue-prints, and 2) APPLIED, where the gritty business of actually making these gizmos & gadgets gets done. Seems to me we have a large difference between those two approaches, since the actual production line would COST a good deal of money to set up. Re-tooling, and maybe even building a brand new factory (or, adding to an existing one) require a substantial amount of time, money and resources, yes? Therefore, seems like it should cost a good deal MORE money to invest in Industrial Tech. It shouldn't be equivalent to supporting a team of draftsmen and speculators, no matter how competent, zany or geekish in nature. I am thinking that the idea I proposed yesterday -- somehow increasing the cost of setting up, expanding, re-tooling or actually producing the new item, whether new naval vessels, anti-tank weapons, or rockets, SHOULD cost more. (... there is a related issue that each research area, and also the corresponding unit construction probably should have different costs, but no need to overly complicate this... ) And so, how to do that, using ol' Occam's handy little blue-blaze razor? What is the simplest way to solve our apparent dilemma? There is a proposed solution to the "tech & force-pool miasma" that is currently under consideration -- we must pay 1/2 value of each research chit if we want to move them to another area. Very fair, and very effective as a means to slow down accelerated research growth. OK. So simply put in a new provision -- there is NO REFUND on Industrial Tech chits. This would more accurately represent real world implementation -- the actual construction of factories and new weapons systems, and have the great benefit of making the game player think about how and where he places those hard-gained MPPs. Think about this. If there were NO research advances at all, the game would be less chancey, and based more on relative skill. If you slow down tech advances somehow, then luck still plays a part, but is not so intrusive. So perhaps if we can make it more costly for the Germans to build up an insurmountable Tech advantage in the early game, then the middle and end games would involve more of the closely competitive aspects that we are interested in. Yet, they would still be able to conduct the blitz, since they would have SOME advantage over clearly ill prepared foes. Since we ALL tend to wander and get off topic a bit now and then (this is actually a good thing, since -- who would want nothing but nuts & bolts every morning for breakfast?), I repeat my proposal -- one half value for all cashed research chits, and NO RETURN on the VERY heavy investment required for Industrial Tech.

As this topic is sogard's baby, I will treat it with all due deference and consideration. After all, as has been said -- children, drunks and negotiators (not fight-first!! advocates) will duly enter the Kindly Kingdom ah just so, at first. (... not to mention that treacherously self-righteous Big Eye in The Sky which over-watches all that we do and say) Long ago I had said that the Air Fleet was the "Queen of the BattleBoard." Since this thread is another way to talk about too much airpower, I will pitch my zwei pfennigs against the pink-floyd wall. Bill's comments are right on the down & dirty money. The best way to control force-pools or too much Air, is by ECONOMIC means (MPPs). If that model is shaped properly, then there will not be any conflict. We might still try out what-ifs? AND control the number of units. In another time & country, I used to write letters to Avalon Hill , asking for more flexibililty with the force pool (and better strategic warfare). I never received ANY replies, so what we have here is a game maker who at least will listen, and I suggest that we all realize and appreciate that. It is not for us to demand! but to politely implore, in the manner of the easeful boddhisatva, yes? Potential solutions, such as pilot training, oil consumption, delayed production for each type of unit, and weather effects are simply not going to be implemented now -- perhaps in SC2, if at all. (... although, I truly think John DiFool's idea of WEATHER limiting the scope of air assaults is the best aesthetic solution... remember the Battle of Bulge? When Allied superiority could not be brought to bear until later... and winter months or April Showers would often limit the # and impact of air strikes... ) And, not incidentally, a difficulty with this model: since you cannot attack a beach hex from the shallows, Air and shore bombardment is the only way to clear a hex; it needs be potent enough to accomplish that (or, allow direct amphib assualts) Although it can be argued that Air Superiority was the ultimate reason for Allied success (along with USA production capabilites -- which is not modeled in such a way as to allow gradual build-up -- the land area being too small to place enough resources), it is also true that there are simply too many Air Fleets possible in SC. :eek: Solution? Here is mine -- Industrial Tech is THE REASON that gamers can afford to buy all those air fleets. Either eliminate Industrial advances altogether, which would coincide with Bill's suggestion that advance unit-tech cost more, OR make it cost a lot more to buy, say 400-500 MPP per chit, instead of 250 as with the others. Or, somehow make Industrial advances MUCH slower to arrive, perhaps by putting a "governor" in with the deux ex machina (and/or, devise a method that requires "upgrading" of existant units in the field) In this way you would limit by economic reality and not by artificial force-pool limitations. I am not personally convinced that Germany could not have fielded MANY more of a particular unit if they had truly wanted to (and, cut down on some other economic expenses, even if NON military -- including such crowd-control techniques as Security Police, Pomp & Pageantry). What-If possibilities MUST be maintained for re-playability (and, I would argue that we need more, in the form of Variants, but that is another thread), but it shouldn't get too far out of line. If you do not want to change Industrial Tech, then I propose the following: Increase the cost of Air Fleets, and/or reduce their combat effects (or, allow AA for units). And this would apply to interception as well. At the same time, reduce costs of Strat Bombers slightly so that they would be bought and used more. There IS a problem with too much Air power, no doubt about it, and if we all provide detailed rationales for our favorite solution, PERHAPS the game-maker will take them into consideration... that's all we can ask, but it's better then sending out plaintive letters and getting not a single solitary reply, yes?

Boy Howdy, the Shade of Freud... Say hey Lads! this is no rude refutation, no, no, but more a sort of antidote -- for Big Media Inc. and satellite sensation! brought to you! by Three Cheers, to get those hard to clean clothes, so recently dirtied, so decently white... Can't remember the movie, or perhaps it was a random, ether blown dream, but the camera obscura seems to be inside the belly of the flying beast, and these April Shower of bombs are slowly floating down --- looks as though a billowing thunder-cloud's squalling all apart, (and there is a classical music score -- Bach? Beethoven? haunting along the background in soft but insistent white-key, black-key melody) and the clouds drift & tatter but lazily re-cover, and way down below you can barely make out... these tiny little patchwork fields, and these tiny little grain silos, and some tiny little chickens, and so, as our antidote-story goes -- there is one tiny bantam rooster, duly be pecking at the hens...well, at last count, roughly 16 chickens consumed in the swirling inferno (and 1 poor chicken soul, exhumed later, deemed to die from a brittle little heart) and in the aftermath the Investigator -- a nice and polite neighbor next door, known to be ruthless but precise, asked the cockeyed rooster -- why he did? what he did what he did, no matter the mayhem be falling all about, and that rooster gathered up sore ruffled feathers, and said: "I thought it my sworn duty to -- keep on keeping on, pecking at the heads." So. There is Logos, and there is thin twistings of smoke out of an Alchemist kiln, and one concerns Order out of Chaos, and the other -- gold out of lead... One is Senor Picasso dripping sulfur, ochre & sweat (making... Guernica?), and the other is Herr Heinkel Heinz, safely landed, and now... O and now -- notice? the large white-coated men, be chasing with a net. Is it Schadenfreude, as the Prosecutor (a few idly wondered if he was sensation seeking, preening for the cameras) wildly charged? Or merely... two old scrawny sots in a movie-lot back-alley (beating enfeebled fists so awful slowly about the other's squawking head) and arguing, arguing, arguing over... a never quite decided -- what-came-first, chicken-or-the-egg kind of bet?

To clarify the above post concerning election trends in America: I was NOT in any way criticizing Bill's excellent idea for including unit names. Like most of you, I am primarily interested in war-games and related discussion. I hereby apologize if anyone was offended by my "political" comments.

... either that, or they got in there, that polling booth place, uh huh, they did, and dithered around, and got to realizing that NEITHER candidate was worth -- dry hawked spit in a hurricane wind, and so they decided to Protest! and commenced writing in -- the name of the celebrity they knew of best, as these sorts are running for office all over the parking-lot these days in this Glitz America, and they figured one old celeb or actor is just as good as any a' them, and so -- started all over to write in M I C K E Y R O O N E Y with a lipstick or eyebrow pencil (this to indicate much consternation -- about all the lick they got left), but then got half way through and got their backs up! they did, and said to themselves -- Themselves! the hell with norms and status and taboo and conformity and polite convention (and... falsely smiling poll-booth Watchers) and decided to be real revolutionaries! like that Chi or Che guy and finally wrote in M I C K E Y M O U S E instead...