Charlie Rock

If you take a look at what people consider to be effective TDs, vs ineffective, it wasn't the gun, it was the armor. What makes a jagdpanther a better AT platform vs a M36? By the end of the war, higher velocity rounds were coming on line. I think the quote is that you don't need a tank destroyer, you need a tank that can destroy another tank. No, that wasn't exactly it. Something like that though.

My only point (correct me if I need correcting) is that 8inch left the inventory after the Gulf War. Tube artillery is 105mm and 155mm. Light divisions have 105mm, heavy/mech 155mm. While MLRS is greater than 155mm, it uses bomblets, for the most part, so if you want to deliver a payload above 100lbs, call the USAF. In that sense, WWII munitions might be considered more effective. Naval gunfire in terms of caliber has also decreased. 16", 14" is no more.

Tank Destroyers were a Gen McNair sponsored idea. To keep divisions mobile and agile a couple of general support TD units jumping from place to place would be a better substitute then everyone lugging around towed AT units. The short answer is no, not really. The problem was TDs were used, like the rest of the army, in the attack. If the defender gets the first shot in and your armor is thin that's bad for you. One of the more common mistakes was trying to use a TD as an assault gun. Having said that, TDs were fairly effective in the Battle of the Bulge. Visibility was less, they were on the defense, and could find some good ambush positions in the terrain of the area. Then a 76mm or 90mm could be effective. SO with a TD, you had to get the first shot in. I think TDs would have had a better post-war reputation if the allies were on the defensive more, and could have used the tactics the TDs were designed for. It fared poorly when misused as an assault gun.

While the actual shell may or may not be more effective, one of the big differences is the fuzing. For example, mortars in 60mm and 81mm with a flick of the wrist can fire delay, point detonating, 10m or 2m airburst. Every shell in the inventory can fire proximity. In the name of mobility, however, it is rare to see anything above 155mm.

The assumption that has been posted is that someone will see that a fratricide is in progress and shut it off. In reality the opposite is true. If one soldier in one squad shoots at a soldier in another, the entire squad will probably return fire. Better safe than sorry. In nighttime and confusion, fratricide builds upon itself. Confused soldiers will happily and enthusiastically join in with all available firepower if their buddy starts shooting first. As far as movement--there's a host of modern night vision gear in the world today, but most good units move ducks in a row, column style, until the last 300 meters from the OBJ until they deploy. Take yourself and a hundred of your closest friends and try to move in a wedge or on line in the dark. Won't happen. I would say nighttime frat is underrepresnted a great deal. Shot out,

Once you get into the first building, safe to assume that most of what is defending will unmask and try to destroy your foothold. When you pick your foothold, go for a heavy, rather than light, as your first one to take. Next best is a light on the outskirts adjacent to a heavy. If you own a light building and the enemy defends from a heavy, time is not on your side- the bad guys will pin you down first and you will have to clear the village faster than you otherwise would prefer to.

Just a thought. I agree with the point made above, hidden mortars generally walk their rounds up and down in a pattern that leads back to the source. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in reality mortars don't work that way. Light 60's--81's at CM type ranges have a de facto range error of 15-20 feet, or less. This is because since the rounds are coming straight down, a degree or two of inaccuracy doesen't translate into much. Most crews at veteran level or above would walk the rounds laterally, anyway, so you couldn't ID their position. The traversing screw on a 60mm is just a little handle-it's like rolling down the car window. On the other hand, during the initial spot of the round and start of a fire mission, the rounds should create a line straight back to the observer, because most FO's make the left / right shift on the first round and then take some time to adjust for range, either bracketing or ladder methods. Food for thought: direct fire automatic weapons, because they are parallel to the ground, also trace a line leading back to them---a 20mm flak gun firing at a point target is an example. The beaten zone for a 7.62 MG at 500m is approx 1 meter wide, and 100 m long, so in reality the mortar beaten zones should be tighter and auto cannons longer and more narrow. Shot out, Charlie Rock