Mike D

Fred, I think what the sarge is getting at is that wars (at least back then) were fought by humans, not computers. And human commanders (even the best of them) made plenty mistakes. So while we would all like a good AI, I think that it also makes a lot of sense that it will mess up from time to time just like we do in the real world. I wouldn't want the AI to turn infallible, like it is in most chess games on the highest settings, for example. Real war is a messy and unpredictable affair where plenty of mistakes are made at all levels. So the AI, IMHO, needs to be balanced between these factors and still provide a competent challenge (i.e. coordinate proper attacks, not do outlandishly stupid things like I've seen in some other games, etc.) for the player. Steve, Are there going to be different AI settings? I believe the answer to this in the past was yes. Correct? Mike D aka Mikester

Fionn and Steve, I went and did a little investigating about the Wirbelwind and it would appear that you guys are once again correct. I found the following at a site called www.achtungpanzer.com "Wirbelwind and Ostwind were fitted with very similar (especially designed) open-top (Wirbelwind's turret had 9 side panels and Ostwind's had 6 side panels) turrets mounted in the place of standard turrets. Main difference was that Wirbelwind was armed with quadruple 20mm Flak 38 L/112.5 guns while Ostwind was armed with single 37mm Flak 43 L/89 gun (both could be used against ground targets as well). 20mm Flak proved to be less effective than 37mm Flak and was eventually replaced by it. Both were produced by Ostbau Works in Sagan, Silesia in limited numbers due to the material shortages and the fact that Ostbau Works moved to facilities of Deutsche Eisenwerke in Teplitz and Duisburg due to danger of being overrun by the Soviets. Overall from May to November of 1944, only 87(105) Wirbelwinds were made, contrary to only 44(43) Ostwinds produced from July 1944 to March of 1945. Both vehicles were issued to Flugabwehrzug (AA platoons) units of Panzer Divisions. There were never enough of them to equip frontline units, which were in the need for adequate mobile AA defense. Both proved to be very effective against low flying aircraft. The interesting fact is that prototype Ostwind was combat tested by 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" during the Ardennes Offensive (December 16 to 22 of 1944) and returned to factory undamaged." This is a fantastic web site by the way with some good pictures and even sketches of German super tanks that never got off the drawing board. Anyone interested in WWII German armor should check it out! Mike D aka Mikester

Nice article Fionn. Your message really brings home some of the important advantages of what BTS is doing w/ CM and how true 3D modeling (not just pretty eye-candy 3D lookingish graphics superimposed over an old 2d model) can really bring things to the tactical wargaming table that have been lost/non-existent for years. Which is exactly why I'm soooooooooooooooooooo much looking forward to CM coming out. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester

Actually I just checked. It was 1 platoon of 4 Wirbelwinds and 1 platoon of 4 Ostwinds. Mike D aka Mikester

Fionn, I don't know that they were that rare, but most certainly not common place. Order of Battle for the 501 SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung I've recently read seemed to indicate that they had one or two platoons of Wirbelwinds for this battalion going into the Herbstnebel (Battle of the Buldge) operation. Mostly I think they were attached to armored battalions and regiments starting late in 1944. Not sure if any PanzerGrenadier, or other formations ever got any. As far as being built on a tank chassis I believe you are correct there. I know the Wirbelwind was built on a PzKw IV chassis. As was the Ostwind if I'm not mistaken. Mike D aka Mikester

Sd Kfz 7/1 ===> aka Wirbelwind ??? (Quad 20mm) Sd Kfz 7/2 ===> aka Ostwind ??? (1x 37mm) I've been reading recently how the Germans used the Wirbelwinds not only for AAA defense, but also as close support infantry weapons during the Battle of the Buldge and later. Must have been devastating to allied infantry units to have one of these suckers open up on them! Also, how prevalent were these in front line units? I seem to find very little, if any, ref. to the Germans using the Wirblewind and Ostwind vehicles much (which I assume means they didn't have them) prior to the very late months of 1944. When were they introduced to combat units in the German army? In any event, it will be very cool to have these units in the game! Regards, Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 10-15-99).]

Searching back through the old threads I found the following on why there will be no beach invasions as posted by Steve of BTS back in May. At CM's scale of simulation a beach assault would be nothing but death. No tactics, no strategy, just death. 30-40min scenarios,that is what we are talking about in CM, not the beginning of a week's long assault that you get to carry out. If CM simulated days, weeks, or months there would be a strong case for including beach landings. But not for Combat Mission. You can only command a little more than a battalion. Even if the Germans only get a company and some heavy weapons... they would wipe out nearly everybody in the short timeframe of a CM scenario. Whoever wasn't killed or incapacitated would be pinned, broken, or panicked. Now picture this in game terms -> 40 turns of doing nothing but watching guys get creamed. No tactical or strategic genius possible for either side. Germans just shoot until they are out of ammo. Allies just die, get pinned, or otherwise do nothing significant. And even if a few bloody squads manage to get off the beach, then what? Take out a few German squads? Not a very big reward for spending about 3 hours of game time getting the crap beaten out of you if you are the Allied player. And the German player would have probably gotten tired and walked away from the game long before then, letting his units auto target instead. In fact, we could probably have ZERO AI, other than the targeting stuff, for the German player and they would STILL WIN. It is that pointless. I remember reading a story from a German MG gunner in a small pillbox on one of the beaches (wasn't Omaha). He went through several thousand rounds of ammo. He thought that he killed hundreds. One MG gunner, probably 10 minutes of combat, wiped out what in CM's terms would be about 1/5 of the Allied landing force. He said the only reason he stopped was because he ran out of normal ammo and was left shooting pure tracers. This attracted too much attention from offshore and his bunker was clobbered. The only person that would enjoy such a scenario (and I am not saying that you are such a person) is someone who is a little sick in the head. Why? Because it will just be a very, very pointless slaughterfest. I say pointless because the game's scope isn't large enough to give such bloodshed any tactical or strategic meaning. So combine this with the enormous programming and art needs and you will see why we aren't going to have beach landings. It just isn't a good idea for Combat Mission. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-21-99).] Mike D aka Mikester

Mike, There are not going to be any beach head invasions in CM. This has been brought up numerous times here one the board and BTS has firmly stated that they do not intend to model the beach invasions at Omaha, or anywhere else for that matter. Reasons given had something to do with the fact that such a scenario would mostly end up being a slaughter and overall, really isn't much fun to play if I remember correctly. Try searching through the old threads here on the board for words like "beach" or the like and you will probably find some of the old discussions on this subject. Mike D aka Mikester

Yeah, I was among the bummed out about the email. I thought at least the beta demo was out for CM or something. Mike D aka Mikester

I was looking at the main Battlefront forum chat page window a little while ago and I see that the CM forum is now over 9,000 messages!!! Wow! However, looking at this screen it appears that the total number of messages allowed is only 9,999 since it looks like there is only room for 4 digits. So what happens when we hit 10,000??? Does BTS have a pseudo-Y2K problem here? Just curious. More importantly, if I'm the 10,000th poster do I get my copy of CM for free? Mike D aka Mikester

David, There's a book I've recently purchased, but havn't had a chance to start reading yet, on the Arnhem / Market Garden battles from the German perspective which is supposed to be pretty good. The title is: "It Never Snows in September." You might want to pick it up as it looks to have some pretty good info in it from what little I've skimmed through the book so far. As far as the D-Day airdrops go can't help you there, but I'm sure there are some good books (maybe unit histories of the US/English airborne formations) that would probably have the type of info you are looking for. Try searching www.amazon.com or the like for 101st or 82nd Airborne, etc. As far as scenarios go I'm looking at doing 2 or 3 historical scenarios from one or more of the following areas: Normandy, perhaps the pursuit across France after Falaise, attacking the WestWall / Siegfreid Line, Market Garden, and the Battle of the Buldge. I'll also probably do several what if type of scenarios not actually based on real life battles as these are much easier to do since you don't have to do all of the research on the map, forces, etc. Mike D aka Mikester

Steve, Thanks for the update! That's all I needed to hear, just a general sense of how are things going w/ the testing, etc. While I'd be curioius what kind of "bugs", etc., everyone might be finding, I can fully understand and support why you don't want to go into a "laundry list" of them here on the board. Hope to see the BETA demo out sometime soon. It's been a long, long, wait lo these many months. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester

Gentlemen, 1) The message was directed to BTS, NOT THE BETA TESTERS THEMSELVES. 2) The request also specifically stated, "I'm just looking for more of an overall feel for how it is going and any other details you feel that you can share at this time." I didn't ask them, nor would I expect them, to air all of their "dirty laundry", things that might get people all "spun-up" over nothing, etc.! In fact, I didn't expect anyone, but BTS, to respond to the thread. Thanks, Mike D aka Mikester

Chaos, Considering the demo isn't out yet, how did you know what time to block out???? Mike D aka Mikester

BTS, OK, I've asked once, and I'll ask again. How about giving us some insight into how the BETA testing is going, eh? Maybe a brief paragraph or two describing the testing so far, problems / issues that have been raised by the testers, things being worked as a result of the testing, etc. I know you've mentioned some things here and there like the redo of the code for the 3Dfx drivers, etc. I'm just looking for more of an overall feel for how it is going and any other details you feel that you can share at this time. Thanks in Advance. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester

Steve, et. al, I'm glad to see that this topic got revisited as I think it is highly important to the game. Steve, I think you answered my question when you stated: "BDW, pat yourself on the back. We thought about adding the extra level of detail so that units might get trigger happy, but it got lost in the shuffle of design decisions. Your email reminded us that it was indeed a worthy element to simulate. I have been informed that it was just coded up So now units that are poorer will have a chance of opening up too soon. We'll probably have to play around with the values a bit, but the core behavior is now in the game" I assume this means ambushing units with more experience (i.e. veteran, elite, etc.) will be much less likely to screw up and open fire too early vs. green units???? Mike D aka Mikester

Pixman, A little hint from the king of diatribes himself. Never, ever, ever, write a long diatribe directly into the little editing window here on the board. Instead, do it in Word or other word processor and then copy paste it into here and submit. Not only does this prevent what happened to you, but it is also infinitely easier to see what you are writing in a word processor window vs. this little tiny window here on the board. Mike D aka Mikester

www.wingssimulations.com reports Panzer Elite went gold today. Should be available as soon as they can get it out the door and into your hands. At least this will give all of us something to do until CM releases which will hopefully be soon as well. Mike D aka Mikester

The most horrid thing about CM is waiting for the bloody thing to come out! Mike D aka Mikester

Fionn, Stop pouring beer into your computer and monitor and I think you'll find they last a little bit longer. Mike D aka Mikester

Great to hear from all of you lurkers out there. Err, well the ones that spoke up that is. I guess a lot of folks probably just come here and read what's going on and are not even registered to post. Which is fine too. The important thing is that we all share a common interest and that we are all going to get "treated" to a great game when it comes out regardless of whether you are a "self proclaimed big-mouth" like myself, or a lurker extrodinaire. Mike D aka Mikester

Wow. I never would have thought there could be so many lurkers. I know there are some here that poke their heads up every now and again, but if anything, I would have thought that we would have outnumbered them by 2 to 1 or 3 to 1, not the other way around. OK, all you lurkers out there. Stand up and make yourselves known so you can all be counted now. PS: Doug, even though you have apparent multiple personalities, you still only count for one person. That is of course unless you actually have 6 heads as well, in which case we might have to make an exception. Mike D aka Mikester

Steve/Charles, I've been curious just how many people are there now registered on the CM board? Seems like I'm seeing more and more new names every day here on the chat page, so I was curious if the number of us here on the board is 100, 500, 1000, or what? Thanks. Mike D aka Mikester

Kwazydog, et. al., Oh, all right, I'll be patient for a while longer. Mike.

LOS: I understand EXACTLY what the gag order means. Sten: Bingo, you got it! Mike