Mike D

Hey guys, OK, now that I've figured out what week it really is, and it's actually been about a week since the BETA testing truly started, can I/everybody please get a report on what's happened so far w/ the BETA testing? Or is it still too early??? Thanks in advance. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester

Mike D: how long have you lived in Highlands Ranch? I grew up near there in Littleton and still visit my folks there a few times a year. dave __________________________________ Dave, Bought my house here on the "Ranch" exactly 3 years ago this Thur. I've lived in Denver area though 3 different times during my life so far and bloody well plan on staying here this time around. Spent most of Junior High and High School years actually living in Littleton as well. Went to Euclid and then Powell Junior High's and then Arapahoe for High School. My folks old place was just west of Arapahoe High School about 3/4 of a mile or so. Other locations I've lived include Rockford, IL, a little town in S.E. Kansas called Iola, Rochester, MI (just north of Detroit), and Seattle, WA. Mike D aka Mikester

Highlands Ranch (Denver Metro area), Colorado, USA. Mike D aka Mikester

Gee, don't know if I can remember back that far. Informal wargame training, The early years of mass destruction started around age 3-4, and just got worse from there with each passing year Building forts, etc. out of legos, lincoln logs and the like and manning them with toy soldiers and then going on the attack w/ anything and everything imagineable including: rubber bands (still remember having one of these snap back in my face while I was aiming and hit me in the eye), thrown artilley consisting of small lincoln logs and/or legos at them, etc. Buiding various ships out of legos and then destroying them by dropping a heavy ended butter knife on them while standing above on a chair and/or sliding the knife across the carpet at the side of the ship in order to torpedo it. Great fun if you've never tried it. Later graduated to taking these concepts outside in the sand-box and / or dirt mounds in the backyard. This is where the heavy artillery of dirt clods and rocks came into play along w/ explosives such as black-cat firecrackers and the like. Melting toy soldiers w/ a magifying glass, etc. Including the destruction of many a plastic model ship, airplane, tank, etc., via the firecrackers, magnifying glass, and even just plain setting them on fire w/ a lighter. The pinacle of all this non-board wargaming experience started at about the age of 17-18 when I and a couple of friends in high school decided to just go out and fight our own war (drinking beer at that point had already lost most of it's novelty so we had to come up w/ something "fun" to do). We each went and bought ourselves a single pump cheapy BB gun and got a hold of some safety glasses / goggles. Out where I lived there was a lot of open area that hadn't yet been developed so there was no lack of places to go to "play". Most of the games were a capture the flag type of affair w/ two teams each trying to capture the opposing teams flag and then return w/ it to their base. Made for many a nasty fire fight including friendly fire losses. The innaugural "game" was held in daylight w/ only 4 of us and I can still remember it vividly. It was tough since it was very difficult to advance without being seen. After that we switched almost exclusively to playing at night which was way cooler and more challenging. We would all put on dark cloths and camouflage stuff to blend into the night scene. I think the largest group that we ever got together was about 6-7 people per side. It was one heck of a night. Things I learned that I'll never forget: fighting at night is a difficult and confusing business although it is infinitely easier to infiltrate a position this way vs. in daylight, getting hit in the head w/ a BB hurts, coming under fire and hitting the dirt and hearing the BB's flying just over your head tearing through the high grass, reeds, leaves and the like, rolling down a hill after coming under fire and coming across a cactus in the back of the leg (ouch!). This went on for some time w/ our battles being fought on various and sundry fields of glory, the employment of bottle rockets launched through "bazooka" pipes, and so on. Finally my best friends mom caught on to what we were up to and he and his brother were banished from playing any further and that as they say was that. Offcial board gaming history: Started in boardgames at age of 12: (all are now in boxes somewhere in the basement) Midway Afrika Korps Third Reich SL series all way through Anvil of Victory AH card game based on SL (title?) AH Carrier(s) (at?) War AH Victory in the Pacific Hells Highway AH Starship Troopers AH game based on Napoleonic Era (title?) AH Panzer Leader AH Tactics AH game based on Amer. Rev. War (title?) AH Wooden Ships and Iron Men AH Battle of the Bulge game A non AH game based on Vietnam Conflict Probably several others I'm not remembering Computer: Over the Reich (my first and only BTS game) THAT IS UNTIL CM comes OUT Harpoon II Across the Rhine Aces over Europe Close Combat I, II, and III East Front (sucked) Steel Panthers (orignal WWII edition) Napoleon in Russia BattleGround 6 Soldiers at War Operational Art of War Vol.I V for Victory Market Garden probably several other older titles I can't remember as well After CM comes out and I sink my teeth into it I imagine all of the above will pale in comparison though. Well, except maybe for the BB gun wars which were some of the most fun I've ever had stupid though they were. Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-24-99).]

Ahhhhh, Pixy old boy, I do feel sorry for you. Nothing worse than the Monster-in-Law coming to pay a visit now is there? Of course, Fionn is going to find out about that soon enough himself now isn't he. As far as sandbagging the den goes, you mean you havn't already converted it into a wife/monster-in-law proof bunker complete w/ months worth supply of food and beer along w/ computer and internet connection???? Mike D aka Mikester

Actually winger, all the rest of us here on the board made it into the Beta test group. So we don't need to read AAARRRRRS anymore. You mean you didn't make it in????? Mike D aka Mikester PS: I know of a lot of swamp land that is available along the E. seaboard of USA right now thanks to the most recent hurricane that is for sale too. Might ye be interested in a plot or two?

"AAA guns were not organic to either a Panzergrenadier (Armd) Company or a battalion's Heavy Weapons Company." Steve, FWIW the following would appear to contradict your statement to some degree, In German Squad Tactics in WWII by Gajkowski on p. 99 is the following: Under heading of: "Authorized Strength, Armored Panzer Grenadier Company (freie Gliederung) or Panzer Recon Company (freie Gliederung), July 1, 1944" We find: 4th Platoon and under this we find, "Flak and Heavy Machine Gun Squad", Where we finally come upon (after various MG units are detailed): 3 half-track drivers No personal weapons, & 3 SdKfz 251/17 half tracks w/ 1 20mm Flak gun each. This is a PG company by the way, no tanks are mentioned in any of the other 3 platoons. Only HT's and grenadiers are mentioned. The 4th platoon also contains a mortar squad w/ 2 80mm mortars intrinsic to the unit. The other units such as a Schutzen Rifle Co. as of May 1, 1944 (p.98), do not have these intrinsic company AA mobile guns, so you appear to be correct in some respects though. Of course this was before June 6, 1944. In fact, the authorized strength of Panzer Gren. Company (freie Gliederung) as of Apr. 1, 1944 does indeed not have the mobile flak guns in the 4th (heavy) platoon either (p.97). My guess is that after June 6, 1944 the Germans learned real quick that they needed better mobile AA cover for at least these more highly "prized" infantry units and decided to quickly convert some HT's to AA mounts for some mobile support at the company level. Of final interest is the authorized strength of Panzer Gren. Company (freie Gliederung) as of Nov. 1, 1944 (p.101). Here, the entire 4th (heavy) wep's platoon has been removed from the entire company, including the mobile flak guns. Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-22-99).]

Another very good and fairly detailed book I just finished reading a couple of weeks ago is Steel Inferno, The I SS Panzer Corps in Normandy which discusses all the actions of the LAH and 12 SS HJ in Normandy. It's written by a Ret. British Maj. General Michael Reynolds and it is interesting how much he bashes the Brits and Canadians for their lack of initiative, etc. in the campaign in the area from Caen to Falaise. Mike D aka Mikester

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Forget about portraying dead bodies. It is not worth the precious 3d computing resources to do this and really serves little, if any, purpose to show them in terms of game play, realism, etc. Yes casualties are a reality of war, but this is a game about tactics and combat, not about collecting wounded and burying the dead. So why show them? Much easier in terms of computational power and 3d display to just let them disappear. Not to mention "wasting" BTS's programming resources for something that buys us all very little. Their talents could be much better utilized to address items on their "list" vs. messing w/ this IMHO. If they want to do this in CM2, and it isn't going to affect frame rates, 3d performance, etc., fine. Make it an optional, turn it on, turn it off, thing. For now, just plain forget about it and let these guys get on w/ releasing this game. I know I for one would not want to see this game delayed further in order to have these kind of menial features added. Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-22-99).]

Herr Oberst, The book I've been reading entitled M. Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the Liebstandarte is a very good ref. covering the original 13th Heavy Tiger Co. of the LAH in Russia from its first deployment during winter of '42-'43 in the recapture of Kharkov, through Kursk and later actions in Russia, and then switching to western front when the unit was redeployed and rebuilt into the covering actions in Normandy (redesignated 101st SS Panzer Battalion and later 501 SS) through Battle of the Bulge. Unit ended the war back in the east in Hungary / Eastern Germany if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, it is a great read on this sub unit of the 1st SS division LAH including many detailed battle accounts of both this unit and other units in the division it fought with along w/ a detailed OB of the unit itself during various points in the war like just prior to Kursk, Normandy, Bulge, etc. It's a very large book (larger than 8.5" x 11") and a good 500-600 pages long w/ lot's of pictures as well. Mike D aka Mikester

And now that I've somewhat purposely led you astray in more ways than one in my first post, I'll share the following report w/ you which at least seems to indicate that firing on the move was achievable to some degree: "SS Ober sturmfuhrer Wittman was in cover with his Tiger, separated from his company, when suddenly an English armored battalion, followed by an armored troop carrier battalion, was reported. After quickly issuing additional orders to his company, he drove into the English column, firing on the move. From 80m. Wittman first destroyed four Sherman tanks. He then positioned himself beside the column and roared along it, firing in his direction of travel. In this way he destroyed 15 heavy tanks in a very short time. Six were damaged and their crews forced to bail out. Subsequently, the escorting armored troop carrier battalion was almost completely wiped out. Wittman's Tiger was then hit by a heavy AT gun and he and his crew were forced to bail out. They proceeded to march 15km to a neighboring panzer unit (Panzer Lehr) and returned some time later to the scene of the fight w/ 15 PzKw IV tanks. Meanwhile they radioed back to their own unit and another Tiger company also moved in to join the fray…." When all was said and done that day, June 13, 1944, Wittman had raised is total kills during the war to 138 enemy tanks and 132 enemy AT guns and he and his crew had single handedly stunted a major allied thrust out of Normandy in the area to the west of Caen in a little known village named Villers-Bocage. For his heroic action he received the addition of the Swords to his Knights Cross. Mike D. Aka Mikester

I know in general that tanks normally stopped to fire their main guns in WWII primarily because they lacked the sophisticated fire control systems of modern day tanks. And even though some of the later US tanks had a gun/turret stabilization system that was supposed to aid in such matters I don't recall that I've heard of tanks thusly equiped firing on the move either. In any event, I ran across this in my reading as of late and found it to be quite interesting. It's a brief exchange between a Tiger commander and a senior German officer in the officer's mess after a training exercise in Mons Belgium in Apr. 1944. "The senior officer who had observed the excercises asked one of the tank commander's to explain how it was possible to successfully engage targets while on the move. The seasoned commander this question was directed towards argued that the Tiger's (Tiger I) weight and its high speed made it unnecessary for a good gunner to stop in order to hit his target." There are a number of things of note here. For one, it sounds like this was successfully demonstrated during the excercises???? It's kind of hard to tell since it doesn't go into any further detail on the matter. But why would the senior officer even ask such a question if something hadn't at least caught his attention during the exercise, if not having been actually demonstrated in full? Whether it was, or not, it is even more interesting to examine the tank commanders response. He primarily notes weight and "high" speed as the attributes that would make this possible. Now higher relative weight is understandable since it would serve to help stabilize the tank from the recoil of the gun and serve as a solid base from which to fire the gun while on the move pretty much just as it would as if it was sitting still even though the dynamics of the two cases are entirely different. The high speed part escapes me though. One would think that the slower the tank was moving the easier it would be for the gunner to hit a target while his tank was moving, not the other way around. In fact one would think w/ increasing speed that the tank would become less stable and start to bounce its occupants and the main gun around more making it more difficult to hit a target on the move w/ increasing speed. There's also the question of "leading" the target (or the reverse thereof in this case) since the firer is moving. If the target were more or less directly in front of the tank it would seem that the detrimental affects of the movement on targeting would be much less than trying to fire at a target off to the side. But again, increased speed would only make this more difficult, not less. So my questions to the "brain-trust" (I use the term quite loosly ) here at the CM board are as follows: Has anyone else read/heard of accounts of tanks firing on the move and successfully hitting their targets in WWII, especially under actual combat conditions? This is one of the only references to such a thing that I can remember seeing so I'm curious what others know about it. I'm sure it was attempted from time to time depending on a given situation in combat, but I've always been led to believe that it was pretty much ineffective in terms of scoring hits consistently. Would anyone like to take a stab at the "high" speed issue? I can't figure that one out at all. Oh, and for those that are wondering the names of the two gentlemen involved in this exchange were none other than GeneralOberst Heinz Guderien and Knight's Cross w/ Oak Leaves holder and company commander Michael Wittman. Mike D. Aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-21-99).]

"In terms of AAA support, a German force of that size *might* have had something, but it wasn't a guaranteed thing. AAA guns were not organic to either a Panzergrenadier (Armd) Company or a battalion's Heavy Weapons Company. In any case the guns would have most likely been towed and therefore would have been of limited use on the attack. Still, better than nothing" Steve, I cannot speak to the above being true, or not. Although I'm sure you've done your homework and know what you're talking about. However, according to the book Michael Wittman and the Tiger Commander's of the Liebstandarte, there was an organic motorized AA platoon attached to the 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion prior to its deployment to Normandy. The platoon consisted of 3 Vierlingsflak vehicles which were modified 8 ton prime mover HT's w/ a quad 20mm AA gun on the rear deck. I assume being there were 3 of them that they were intended to be deployed 1 each to each of the 3 tank companies. It's also extemely interesting to note that all/most of the Tiger I's in the battalion had had their turret MG's removed and mounted on top of the tank for AA protection (at least for the march to the front). There are several pictures of some of the tanks w/ these MG's mounted on top of the turret as they headed to the front (pp. 367-374). There are also several references made to being attacked by enemy dive bombers during the march where the 4x20mm AA guns on the mod. HT's and MG's mounted on the tanks fired on the enemy aircraft. Including one ref. to a downed enemy plane credited to tank commander Bobby Warmbrunn during one segment of the march where he and at least two other tank commanders fired furioiusly at the attacking aircraft (p. 316). After the one plane was downed the remaining fly boys reportedly turned tail and broke off the attack. There is a later ref. to another FB attack on the quad20mm AA platoon itself which also downed another allied plane. While I do not know if the quad20mm vehicles followed the Tiger companies/platoons into combat (I assume that they may very well have), it is readily apparent that the tank commanders themselves were more than willing and able to defend themselves to some degree even if the flak units were not around. That is assuming of course that they kept the MG's mounted in this fashion when the went into combat vs. putting them back into the turret mounts and that they were not having to deal w/ other matters on the ground. If I see a pic/read more on this as I go through the book I'll let you know. Finally, it is interesting to note the other organic units attached to the battalion. In fact these units, together w/ the flak platoon, make up the 4th (Light) Company of the Battalion. A pioneer platoon w/6 HT's, 2 motorcycles, and a Kubelwagen. An armored Recon Platoon w/ 2 HT's for each squad and 1 for the Platoon HQ. And a scout platoon consisting of 3 squads each having 3 Kubelwagens and 1 additional Kubelwagen for the platoon HQ. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester "A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears."

Gimme, gimme, gimmme......... Now, now, now............... They've had a whole couple of hours then, right? I want a report gosh darn it! Actually I screwed up (imagine that). I thought they had started last Mon., my mistake. I think this learning to program in C thing the last couple of weeks is truly starting to rot my little pea of a brain. Mike

My 2 cents worth on the display of dead soldiers. Forget about it, it serves very little, if any, purpose in a game like CM. In Close Combat series of games I have always turned dead soldiers off. They do nothing but clutter up the screen. Furthermore, the computing graphics resources in the game and programming resources at BTS would be much better spent on any number of other things. Simulating guys "playing dead" also seems like a waste of time and computing resources. They're either dead, or they're not. Pixman, The quest for WP continues I see. Go get 'em tiger! Mike D aka Mikester

Fionn, Starting to have dreams about the game, eh?? And, uhm, just exactly what have you been smoking? Actually, when I really get into an engrossing game the same thing happens to me. So I'll take this as a "good" sign of things to come. Mike D aka Mikester "A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears."

BTS, How's the BETA testing going after the first week? Any major bugs / suggestions for improvement from the "team-beta" as of yet? Mike D aka Mikester "A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears."

Steve, Not to worry, I didn't expect to get in. I'm actually surprised that the list of those that didn't get in isn't 100 times longer than the one of those that did. I'll simply be happy to see the Beta demo come out sometime soon followed by the actual game. Mike D aka Mikester

Pixman, For better, or for worse, Pixy old boy, I didn't make it. So not to worry. I've probably made too big a pain in the a** of myself to be considered for such testing. Even though I sent an email to Charles signing up for such duty eons ago (actually very shortly after what was then Computer SL, now CM, was first shown over at the old BTS webpage and this discussion board didn't even exist). Anyway, I'm sure they've picked the folks that they felt could best do the job. Besides, Steve/Charles probably couldn't handle a "diatribe" bug report on every last little thing anyways. Mike D aka Mikester "A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears."

"P.S. See other thread about "spawning" for multi-player. Something we haven't decided on yet." Ahhh, Steve, you read my mind. I asked about this quite some time ago. Still no decision eh? Well, it's probably a minor point either way, but I actually think it might help attract more paying customers. But then that is just my opinion. On a totally different topic, what have you guys decided about the game turn timer? Is it in? Not in? Still undecided as well? Regards, Mike D aka Mikester A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears.

According to George Bush Jr. that orginally took the pics and sent them to me to scan in I believe the kill hit is the one on the upper edge of the left side of the turret. Since the extra plates are not there I'm not sure if it partially hit one of the welded on plates, or not. Judging from the weld line running up the side of the turret it appears that it may have hit this extra plate. In the second photo you can see this penetration (they actually covered the hole with what looks like some open mesh grating for some reason). It's just above the green sign on the front railing above the "AN" in the word TANK. You can also see it in the fourth photo right along the upper edge of the picture about 20% of the way from the right edge of the photo. In this same pic you can also see the shot that hit the gun barrel. George said that he thought this shot was a richocet from one of the ones striking the front hull. It looks to me like the shot that hit the left corner of the tank (4th photo) where the front armor joins the side armor most likely deflected off the tank hull at this point and thence onward to nail the gun barrel. Mike D [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-13-99).]

My guess from reading some of the other material about this unit is that the Tigers that got knocked out by the M24's were simply overwhelmed. I say this because as you read down the chronology of what happened to this unit (other similar chronologies in the book go much the same way BTW) it sounds like this unit was getting "bled white" towards the end of the war and that bit and pieces of it were deployed piecemiel here and there vs. being concentrated at any one point. In fact the post in this log from the previous day on p. 87 states that 2 Tiger I's from this unit took part in an engagement w/ Panzer Regiment 33 (9th panzer division) somewhere west of the Rhein and were then transported to the other bank after breaking down. So my guess is that there were probably only 2, maybe 3, Tiger's sent to Dormagen on the 25th w/ little/no other support as such support might very well have not existed. The American Armored Calvary unit (4th Cav Group) probably advanced en-masse w/ supporting infantry and simply outflanked the Tigers and then enveloped them until somebody could get off a good kill shot to knock them out from the rear. As Fionn has stated many a time, it became a war of MaterialSchact (spelling?) in the end that the Germans could never hope to win. Mike D aka Mikester

Fionn, I had exactly the same question. The pics I've seen of the M24's in the past don't look like they had anything more than a 75mm gun (maybe 76?). They must have gotten real close, real lucky, or a rear shot or something. The book doesn't explain any of the details. The page I was referring to just looks like excerpts from some type of diary or combat log for the unit. There is a picture though, of the Tiger that got hung up in the rubble of the building that supposedly knocked out the M26. So I suppose that at least lends some degree of credance to the story about the M26. Mike

Here is the link to the pics that Patrick set-up for us. Thanks Pat. BTW, I need, once again, to give credit to Mr. George E Bush Jr. for taking these pics. http://www.battlefront.com/aar/mikepics Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-12-99).]

FWIW I know the subject of the M-26 Pershing actually seeing combat before the end of the war has come up at least once, or twice here on the board. By pure chance I was skimming through a book I bought yesterday called Tiger's in Combat II and just happened upon the following on p. 87 showing what appear to be various daily log entries for a unit called the Schwere Panzerkompanie Hummel which took up station in and around Etzweiler and Elsdorfer Burge in W. Germany as of Feb. 16, 1945. 25.02.45 (Feb. 25, 1945) 1 TIGER I knocks out an M26 PERSHING in ELSDORF becomes bogged down in the debris of a house during the withdrawl and has to be left behind. 2 TIGER I's are knocked out near DORMAGEN by M24 CHAFFEE'S (4th Calvary Group). It's not only interesting to note that an M26 saw action here, but also that 2 M24's did near the same area as well. I am not too sure when the M24 was supposedly introduced in the ETO but apparently both tanks were available in at least some form of limited quantities by the mid to late Feb. 1945 time frame. Mike D aka Mikester A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears.