sfhand

The end of September was not the promised release date.

There was a promised time it's on the page you claim I didn't read... you're killing me. The no refund policy is not a matter of the FTC law you cite since the promised time hasn't been exceeded. It would fall under the jurisdiction of state law as the link I provided earlier clarified. I did look at the Europe link, not a court ruling, just some grousing.

Thanks for the link, here's the relevant part: If the business is unable to ship within the promised time or within 30 days, the merchant must promptly tell the customer by mail, telephone or email, and give a new shipping estimate and give the customer a chance to cancel their order and receive a full refund. The promised time was on the sales page and is in the sales policy. BF is still able to ship within the promised time. Game. Set. Match. Europe is of no concern to me.

Keep digging...

Returns and Refunds: Federal Law While state laws primarily govern the issue of returned merchandise, there's no federal law that requires a merchant to refund money. Per most state laws, refunds are subject to the established store refund policy at the time of purchase, unless the product purchased is found to be unfit for the purpose of which it was intended. A customer changing his or her mind after making a purchase, such as deciding they want a bigger television screen, is not the fault of the merchant and the merchant cannot be held responsible. Generally speaking, most stores do offer refunds. It is usually pursuant to a store policy which explicitly that returns are extended, in order to create and keep good will in the community; but again, this is a store policy and not a federal law. https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/return-policies-and-refunds.html

Not so stupid as to resort to ad hominem... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad hominem

And now perhaps you can understand my comment about lawyering up? Because until it is settled in court it is a pointless argument. If you really think you're right sue them.

LMFAO... you posted the link to it! I don't think you even read your own link based on your distortion of it (which is why I asked if you were going to seriously try and call someone else out for a lack of reading comprehension). I'm not going to answer your other posts (I haven't read them yet) until you deal with the contents of the Sales Policy that you linked to - line by line, if necessary - because that link discredits everything you are saying.

You posted a link to the Sales Policy, I thanked you for doing so and I pointed out that you missed the pertinent parts. Did you not see the post with a direct quote of the Sales policy? Your assessment of the Sales Policy is incomplete and incorrect, I posted the parts you overlooked - parts that undercut your entire argument. edit: Correcting your faulty assertion is not trying to silence you.

And the terms were plainly posted on the product page and in the Sales Policy.

Post a link or it didn't happen...

||CptMiller|| thanks for the great video!

Hey, I understand where you're coming from. I don't have anything invested in this, Hell, at this point I think anyone who thinks they've been wronged should go ahead and lawyer up and sue BF (i.e., put their money where their mouth is). In a thread like this I think posting the sales terms of a pre-order is helpful more than divisive. I was seriously surprised that some couldn't accept it for what it is. Peace out!

There are plenty of threads I don't read in the forums because I'm just not that interested...

More from the "Sales Policy page": "ORDERS WITH OUT OF STOCK OR PRE-ORDER ITEMS If your order contains any out of stock, backordered or Pre-order items your order will NOT ship until all ordered items are back in stock. We do not ship out partial orders. Our online ordering system is setup to bill you at the time of purchase not the time of shipment. That means that as soon as you click the "Submit Order" button your credit card will be billed. If your order contains backordered or out of stock items you will be billed the full amount before the order ships. If you do not wish to be billed in that way, then please do not place an order with any out of stock or backordered items." Pre-ordered items are "out of stock" items by definition about which BF clearly states if you don't want to be billed in advance on out of stock items don't order them. Let's look at this rationally... BF has a Sales Policy page and they have a product page that parrots the key bits of information about when to expect a pre-ordered product (when it is in stock). The product page also says the game will ship when it's ready(it is not in stock until a release candidate has gone gold). I do not perceive this as marketing, I believe this information is included in the sales page so that prospective buyers won't have to read the "Sales Policy" page to understand the pre-ordered item will not ship until it's ready. The unscrupulous thing to do would be to not mention it at all on the product page and fall back on a "Well it is clearly spelled out in our Sales Policy" rationale as an answer to complaints about taking money from customers and not delivering product. Clearly BF has not acted in bad faith toward their customers, but have tried to ensure complete transparency regarding the parameters of the purchase. That's not just marketing, that's also being honest about the parameters of the purchase.

Ummm... really? You're gonna go there?

So, I went to their "sales policy", thanks for the link, and it says the following about pre-orders: "Backordered and Pre-Order items are shipped out when they become available." So your description of their sales policy is grossly inaccurate. When I wrote "Please do explain..." I was hoping you would do a little better than this. 2nd edit: Also, their "sales policy" aligns with what you claim are marketing materials. I'm no legal expert, but I would not be surprised if you were wrong that their product page would be considered merely marketing when it spells out the when the product will be released.

Lore heresy...

Great post. My own position concerning not just this release, but every release since Combat Mission: Shock Force, is that I would love more information about the development of product and patches, whether it be roadmap posts or release updates. That doesn't mean I feel entitled to them however. This is the first BF developed CM title since CMSF I haven't preordered. Going by your join date I am going to assume you didn't experience the CMSF release and all the complaints that went with it - what's going on in this thread doesn't even move the needle in comparison. I personally found the game as released to be far below what I expected. To the point of not playing it at all for quite a long time. With every patch I would give it another try. It took several patches for me to find it worthy of my time. Throughout, having fallen in love with CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, I was willing to wait for them to get it right, eventually they essentially did (to the degree the limitations of the engine would allow). The fact that they are "porting" the CMSF to v4 and are giving a deal to those who already own CMSF illustrates to me their value of their customers far more than stopping into the forums during crunch time does or would. Long ago Steve, who is quite verbose and active on the forum when not in a deadline induced foxhole, promised CMSF customers would be rewarded for their endurance and loyalty (my words not his). I have come to know and appreciate when it's done is the release date of BF products. I have come to expect a lack of communication from BF when it's foxhole time and I am okay with it because I think I understand why. My respect for BF and the Betas for their continued dedication to making the best possible game they can make has and continues to deepen over the years. I have had the pleasure of getting to know a few Betas and I am constantly amazed at the time they donate to this game and to interacting with and helping others on the forums. When I was asked by a Beta if I was interested in being a Beta I said no because I knew/know I could never measure up to the standard they've set.

Spoilsport! Perhaps we should discuss a game...

I understand your points and don't really take any issue with them. I would put forward the possibility that Steve isn't visiting the forum and therefore isn't aware of any complaints. I don't think it is unrealistic that Steve, whose product has missed a couple of projected shipping windows, is probably frustrated,head down, mired in a swamp, trying to get the game out the door. Under those circumstances I don't blame him for not explaining to people who preordered that the game will ship when it's ready and (thankfully, given the time patches take) not before. To keep beating the dead horse bears repeating, when one preorders it is spelled out that the game isn't done and will not ship until it's ready. So far, at least two projected release windows have been missed (my recollection, I could be wrong about this). Why anyone would want another is beyond me... I mean really, what do you tell a guy with two black eyes? Nothing he hasn't heard twice before...

Please do explain...

I don't hear BF moaning about anything... The answer to when it's coming out is when it's ready. On the store page it clearly says the product is not finished and won't ship until it is finished. If you preorder under those circumstances you aren't entitled to anything except the product when it's finished. If you don't like those clearly published terms don't preorder...

Hey, I'm with you about tit-for-tat arguments. The store page says it will ship when it is ready. That is the release date. That is always BF's release date (with one questionable exception in the view of many). My query about whether you will continue as a customer was asked because you wrote that BF could improve sales numbers by posting monthly status reports. It was the wrong question to ask though, I should have asked if you are going to start buying extra copies of games if BF starts releasing a monthly status report. Other than that I see no factual basis for your claim of improving sales. It's all in good fun bro... enjoy your evening.

There is no guesswork involved about when the game is shipping. It is clearly spelled out on the store page. edit: So are you saying BF has lost you as a customer?