Andrew H.
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Posts posted by Andrew H.
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Some interesting things from testing.
At that sort of angle and distance, it takes 3 shots to hit. It seems that they always bounce off. At some point, the test Elefant decided to back off, and turned to face the gun as it reversed. At that time, it took a full frontal hit that caused "armour spalling" and the crew bailed!
Also, the Elefant took 15 minutes before it spotted the ATG (with the ATG not hiding, not firing) at that range and angle. Troops nearby without binos never spotted it. Troops with binos took about 10 minutes to spot it.
So either that JgPz got _very_ lucky, or maybe some other unit that had been looking for longer in Bil's force was the spotter?
Furthermore, the ATGs _never_ spotted the infantry that I placed in the grass and wheat in the vicinity of the test Elefant. Despite the infantry moving and hunting.
Well, what this confirms is once again I have to take the shot. There is never another time when I might get the jump, because I know that Bil has infantry around that area, so they will spot my gun before I spot them.
Who knows, maybe the Elefant will turn to face me and I get a lucky armour spall!
I'm being forced by the threat of unspotted inf spotting my ATGs to open prematurely with the ATGs.
GaJ
Interesting test results - and, yeah, you could also get a gun hit - there's certainly enough gun to hit. Or an immobilization.
I wouldn't have expected spalling with a front hit at that range, though.
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No meat. Beef cheek on the other hand stewed for a few hours is like eating osso buco without having to dig for the meat. Absolute heaven man. If you haven't had it, you don't know what you are missing.
Thanks Buzz, yeah right off the vine, damn I love summer.
I was always afraid to eat them because I was never sure which "cheeks" they were.
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Yeah, mortars are the "Rock" to ATG's "Scissors"...
It sounds a little bit (to me, with very incomplete info) like you might be trying to rush things a bit much. Was it necessary to commit your infantry before the ATGs were dealt with (perhaps in order to get spotter LOS)? I can see if you're up against a time constraint, you might need to push with the infantry before their clanking, snorting friends can come and help, but usually taking your time will pay off in increased speed once you do get a-movin'.
I think this is good advice.
I also think that using ATGs is one of the things that the AI is best at - it tends to pick good starting positions if the map is good...and it doesn't need to worry about maneuvering them in response to something the player does...which it is less good at, anyway.
And IMO ATGs are hardest to fight in "probe" type situations, where you don't have the overwhelming force you might have in an attack or assault situation.
But the best advice for dealing with ATGs is to advance with infantry slowly and then call in mortars if you do find them. Although you probably won't find them until after they've fired.
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So am I following this correctly: GaJ took out two of Bil's HTs, one with an ATG and one with an MMG? But because they died at about the same time, and because there was MG fire involved, Bil thinks that they were taken out by an AA gun that penetrated both vehicles? Or have I missed something?
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I generally follow that stance as well. About the only time I will use target is if I am afraid the AI will choose what I believe to be the least threatening or lower probability kill in choosing between multiple targets.
That's mostly what I do, too...also directing the AI to a particular target if it seems more productive to my plan, somehow - like directing all squads with LOS to fire on a particular house because I mean to move there next turn.
But in this case, where taking out the Elefant would be a game changer, where the opportunity to get a side shot may not happen again, and where taking out the Elefant from another aspect seems unlikely, I would probably take the low-odds shot.
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It is not the end of the world and now I know where his AA is located.
You can identify the shooter's locations by looking through the bullet holes on the second halftrack and lining them up with the bullet holes on the first.
Although I suppose that may not be the safest method...
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Thx for the replys. I was asking because theyre dated and I wanted to know if all is still valid whats inside written. I was especialy looking for the ones that cover the Sicily and Italian campaigns as I recently noticed that I dont own books about these theatres. So theyre covering the operational level but Iam also looking for something on the tactical level. Any tips?
I wouldn't call them dated at all: they are based on interviews with participants (on both sides, in some cases) as well as primary documents. In many cases, I find that a lot of more recent books just seem to be an abridgment of the relevant Green Book. (Also, it's rare that recent books give you enough maps to show you what's actually going on).
There are topics the books don't go into in much depth, particularly political issues; and I think we do understand more about the German side of things now than we did in 1960. But if you could only have *one* book dealing with a particular battle involving the US Army, the Green Book would be the one to have.
(I also like the "Three Battles" book, which has a fairly detailed look at, well, three battles. There are a lot of small unit actions, plus interesting examples of things that you don't usually see in CM level battles, like companies getting lost on their way to the jumping off point for the battle. Or maybe they are "reinforcements".) :
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In comparison, I don't need to do this with the US Army, I find their squads to be a much better balanced tactical formation so I can combine bits and pieces of different squads with similar results.
That's interesting - in CMFI, I find the exact opposite. US Squads are big, which is good, but are all armed with rifles, except for the BAR man. My US squads are always being outshot at 200 meters or less by Panzergrenadier squads with two MG-42s and 1 (or 2?) SMGs. And at closer range, the SMG heavy HQ squads are deadly.
I like the US squads in CMBN better - there tends to be more cover, which allows the larger number of men in the US squad to count - a squad or two in what I think of as "line formation" behind bocage can pretty much dominate the field on the other side and generally outshoot any smaller German squads trying to set up a similar force behind another hedge.
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What are their experience and leadership levels?
Michael
By buying conscripts instead of regulars, he was able to afford three more halftracks!
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I'm torn: I want to see the heroic snipers take out the Elefant with their entrenching tools...but I also want to some Elefanty action.
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ANZAC Day Not a lot of sleep had for the leaders
Is that you? You're younger than I thought...
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I tend to agree with you. The real life costs of ATGs vs. AFVs were so one sided that if a defender lost two guns, or even more in some cases, for each AFV destroyed, he probably would come out ahead.
Michael
But only if you ignore the crew!
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It also depends on where in the 25 year or so cycle a particular plot is in. I was cruising timber with my brother in law this weekend on their north Florida farm. There were sections that had been recently thinned and burned and you could see clear through them, easily 200m. You wouldn't want to be a deer walking through those trees. Other areas that hadn't been thinned and still had all the undergrowth blocked visibility at ground level within first 30m or so.
Timber grog!
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Yes, tree farms rather than true forests. I imagine the undergrowth is cleared as extra protection from fire. The same practice can sometimes be observed in some parts of the US as well. This can be modeled in CM in the same way that orchards are.
Michael
Some natural pine forests don't have much undergrowth once the trees reach a certain height: the pine needles make the ground acidic in a way that inhibits the growth of underbrush (plus the taller trees make it dark near the ground). You can see this in parts of the Black Forest as well as in some pine forests in the US.
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The Fifth Minute
I made a little error last time I gave my orders.. I had moved the target line of all of my support by fire units to better cover the ridge on the Left Tit and accidentally gave the Elefant a target order instead of target light... so they threw away several rounds this turn. Damn. Pretty impressive rate of fire however, around 10 seconds between shots.
How many rounds does the Elefant carry? The Brummbar? Do you know the Brummbar's ROF?
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This battleground is real terrain:
Tits? Those are more like mosquito bites!
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AP mines: GaJ identified the blind spots around the right tit. A few AP mines in the sheltered hollows near the base of the tit would be pretty useful.
10 AT mines - 250 pts. An Elefant immobilized in a blind spot...Priceless.
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Andrew H.: Thanks for running the points. I still think GaJ should've spent some AP mines and just a couple (at least) AT mines. Nice analysis of the Rangers vs. line infantry. I agree that the lack of men may be telling. The "boom" factor may make up for it... (What would separate 'zook teams have cost??)
Ken
Separate zook teams are 34 pts.
Separate MMG teams are 37pts.
I knew a standard rifle company was more expensive than a ranger company, but I didn't realize how much more:
Ranger Co.: 350 pts.
Inf. Co.: 740 pts.
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GaJ's force: I think a company of Rangers may be a mistake. High morale is great, and I -assume- he's also cranked up their experience. However, Rangers are an offensive unit. Their TO&E is meant to attack. (I know! That's ALWAYS a good thing, right?
) A line company, with a Ranger platoon attached for counterattack may be better suited to take the punishment which is surely coming their way.I'm not sure that this is a mistake.
On the one hand, the standard US infantry squad is pretty good in a lot of situations: it's big, it's resilient, and it can take a lot of punishment. In the kind of "set-piece" battles I tend to end up fighting in CMBN, it can also dish out a lot of punishment, particularly when firing from behind good cover, like bocage.
On the other hand, when I play a CMFI battle, which tends to be larger and more open and involve a lot of split squads, the Panzergrenadiers give my Americans fits because they have so many automatic weapons - two of the three teams have MG-42s, while the US squads will have only one team with an automatic weapon, which is just a BAR. Even the German HQ squads are deadly at 200 meters or so because of their SMGs. (I don't think US HQs have thompson's in Sicily; also US armored infantry squads don't get any BARs in Sicily).
On the other hand, a ranger platoon gets either: (1) a 4 man HQ with 2xThompsons, 1 Garand, and 1 marksman, plus two 10 man squads with 2 Thomspons, 1 BAR, 7 Garands (plus two satchel charges); or (2) the same 4 man HQ, plus 2 7 man squads with 5 Garands and 2 Thompsons, *and* two 3 man MMG teams. (There's a zook in the mix, too).
So I think this would be a reasonable defensive choice to deny Bil's infantry scouts on a large map like this. The weakness, of course, is that they are somewhat brittle, as each Ranger platoon consists of 20 men plus HQ, as opposed to 36 men for a standard company. (Which does cost more, however).
The timeframe means that GaJ has few choices for 76mm guns. The ATG's cannot be relied on anything other than one or two shots. A single gun is a goner. A "pakfront", with tight cover arcs, so they won't fire until the enemy is deep in the killzone, is the only way to use an immobile weapon. Afterwards, expect artillery to neutralize them.
I like the 4 ATGs; I just hope he can keep them far enough back that they will be useful. I like 76mm because of its anti-infantry capability - not its primary function, but they can sometimes take out a half squad without being spotted. Or take out a mortar team that is trying direct fire. You're right that arty is their weakness, though,.s - particularly in this battle where Bil has *so much* arty.
Other than the M-10's, I don't see anything with tactical mobility. The M-10's are a mortarman's dream. Bil is anticipating a reaction force. (Kenforce, anyone?
) GaJ is attempting one.I think I would have gone for Shermans over M-10s. While the M-10 can, I think, penetrate the Elefant from the side, it has too many other shortcomings: it doesn't carry many HE rounds, it doesn't have a BMG (like the Ferdinand at Kursk!), and it's vulnerable to artillery. Because I think it's very unlikely that Bil would allow a flank shot against his Elefant, betting on an M-10 on the off chance of getting a kill seems too speculative.
.Another point: GaJ stated that he cannot purchase enough obstacles to render the ridge road unusable. That's not the purpose of an obstacle. Channelize the attack, don't try to stop it. I'd think he should've purchased a LOT of mines. He's got to try to hold the tits as long as he can. (Good advice, any day of the week.) Mining the deadzones, a few likely approach paths, etc, would be enough to give Bil pause.
(I have not yet tried to find out what 3500 points (is that the right number?) can buy GaJ. Take the above criticisms under advisement based on that.)
Thoughts?
Ken
I haven't run the number on the mines, but I think they end up being fairly expensive in large enough quantities to have a meaningful effect. But then again, I suck at placing mines, so there is that to consider.
But I like the bunkers even less: I don't think you want to be fixed in place in this battle.
Since GaJ decided to go with the m-10s, I wonder what a platoon of Stuarts would have cost as a rapid anti-infantry reaction force? At least in CMFI, their canister is devastating against infantry at likely ranges; they also move quickly and have a lots of MGs. (It's also easier to resist the temptation to use them against the big tanks, although of course they can take out a Pz IV from the side...
Edit: I did a quick CMFI point value check (some values are approximate due to crew quality variations):
Sherman: ~180 pts.
Stuart: ~110 pts.
HMG Bunker: ~80 pts.
10x AP mines: 150 pts
10x AT mines: 250 pts
10x mixed mines: 300 pts.
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I would give him more points if I could.. I have already offered the following:
--only purchase one Elefant... showing the Elefant was part of the purpose of this AAR, I could have easily taken more
--purchase no Tigers or Panthers.. those tanks can really upset the balance
I do want a challenge and I think I have gone out of my way to not have an overwhelming force and have even provided a little advice via email to GaJ. Also, I gave him the choice of whether to attack or defend, and he, knowing the Germans would be the attacker, chose to defend.
What more can I do?
This is very reasonable. Given the points available, it looked like you would be able to buy a platoon of Elefants, a platoon of Tigers, maybe two platoons of StuGs, and then a couple of companies of infantry; I wasn't sure how the US could realistically counter this force.
But I intend to find out once the game is released!
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This is going to be tricky.
Bil has a *lot* of points, possibly enough to buy a platoon of elefants, a platoon of tigers, and maybe 1 or 2 platoons of StuGs. Plus a couple of companies of infantry and some arty.
The elefants are going to be really hard to neutralize; a hit on their lower side hull by a Sherman would do it; a hit on their upper side hull would likely not (80mm @40 deg.). Regardless of the exact makeup, it shouldn't be hard to buy a force with good flank protection for the elefants - so good that the defender will only see them from the front, perhaps.
So maybe planes aren't a bad idea.
I like the idea of AT mines, but I usually find that the number of mines I need to buy to cover the area I'd like to cover ends up being really expensive.
On maps like this, I do like putting a couple of AT guns on the flanks, far back, just to keep the attacker honest.
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Very interesting map. And a *lot* of points to play with.
It does look like moving between Uppertown and Lowertown will be difficult because of the cliffs, though.
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So this will be an urban map? Looks that way. Interesting. I hope the terrain is very favorable to defense. Anecdotal evidence I have read on the forum suggests that defenders in attack/defend QBs don't win very often at the default 1.65:1 odds.
Did those defenders have M-16 HTs with quad-.50's?
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By the way you keep misspelling center, and armor. I thought I was the Brit in this scenario..
He had no answer to your amour?
) A line company, with a Ranger platoon attached for counterattack may be better suited to take the punishment which is surely coming their way.
AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant
in Combat Mission Fortress Italy
Posted
I love looking at pictures of the Elefant. Does the Zimmerit really only go halfway up?