The Commissar

Ari, 1) Forgive me about the mountainous part. I must of been thinking about another part of North-Eastern Europe (didn't have a map/atlas with me on hand). However, I stand by that the forests were indeed immense were perhaps the most severe impact on combat. 2) By "real" I mean an attack that the Soviet army was famous for at the time. If the first one failed, they would regroup, rearm, and stage an assault many times more massive and with lessons learned about the state of preperation of the Finnish defenders. Stalin knew that this sort of attack could not be staged, as all available troops were used in pushing back the Germans. Finland was deemed to be no major threat to the USSR and thus forgoten. Besides, although no none-conditional surrender was established, the Soviets did get land and a cease fire to eliminate Finland from their list of potential problems. 3) As I said, its difficult with the massive forests and wilderness to have any success with tank use. Now, I know I hoped this would not get brought up as it is dealing with a weakened Russia, but...did tanks have any effect in the war against Chechnia? No. If they did have any effect, it was minimal. Mostly, they were expensive targets. In the winter war, they had more of an effect in the more massive battles. However, considering the terrain and the countless numbers of ambushes that were relatively easy to stage. It always mystifies me how people see a tank army as a clear sign of power and inevitable victory. It just ain't so. Send a tank down a wooden road, and it's just a metal coffin. Effectively blind until too late, unable to save itself or retreat out of danger if in cramped conditions. 4) The shell and gun ammount might have been many, but it doesn't ammount to didly if you dont hit anything. Unless in a major engagement, and the Soviets were able to target their shells at a concentration of Finnish forces, all arty ever did was deform the landscape some. Sure, it caused casualties. Usually though, this mass concentration didnt pay for itself. Same as tank armies. Its effective in the right enviorment and if used right. If I can't see what Im throwing shells at, there's a 1 in 100 chance that I'll hit something, especially if the target is small (like many Finnish forces). Oh, and entire forests burned down and not being able to hide in them is, forgive my language, bulls@it. First off, there was still plenty of forests to hide in. Second off, even in a burned down forest of charred husks of wood, you can hide damn well. Especially in snow. Give me a white suit and have me lie down in the snow sorrounded by charred logs. See if you're able to notice me from even 50 metres off. 5) Vast spaces and blood. If the Soviets didn't put up resistance and simply retreated back, it would take Germany 4 weeks to get to Moscow. If it wasn't for the sacrifises of the early Soviet fighters who, sometimes unwillingly, died for the "motherland", the USSR would have been overrun.

Juha, I wont even respond to you. You seem to be very agressive on your part, and seeing as how I am indeed Russian, I am no match for your superior Finnish wit, sentence composition and overall wording. You win this argument hands down sir. Good show. Hostilities aside, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out. Ari, (since the quoting system in this new forum only allows me to quote only your last responce after your last quote, I'll just adress things in the order in which they appeared) 1) Notice that snow restricting movement was only one of my points on why it is difficult for anyone, at anytime, to attack a country such as Finland. Winter or Summer, Fall or Spring, the country is wooden, mountainous (and I am sure this was more so in the 40's then they are now) and overall difficult to attack. The Soviets failed in the '44 invasion because they were still busy with a bigger enemy, Germany. If the Soviet Army was freed of its burden, or if Stalin decided he wanted Finnish land, he would have had his generals stage a real attack. 2) Let's not forget that these tanks had thin armor, easily penetrated by hidden AT Rifle and AT gun teams which had that wooden terrain I mentioned previously available to them. The supposed Arty would have to be so inacurate and slow to retarget, it would not be useful other then in a preliminary bombardment role. To demonstrate again in CM turns, buy a conscript spotter and see how long it takes you to bring fire to something. By the time the shells are dropping the intended target is long gone. 3) When Finns launched their of '41, the Soviet Army was still in a state of disrepair. It's a miracle it was even able to survive long enough to be rebuilt, restocked, and retrained. All your other points I am either in agreement with or are adressed by things I already stated in this messege. [ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

Ok, just cause Im out of the tourney for this month (or would that be the next 3 months, Duke? ) doesn't mean I don't want to hear some kick-ass AAR's! Come on, let's here some tie-breaker carnage! Wooohooo! AKoTM RULZ!! *ahem* Sorry bout that, day off of skool and edumacation so im a bit excited.

Im interested in the Soviet version of ski troops myself. After the Winter War, they employed them to much success against the Germans. The Finnish have as much of an advantage in the later stage of WW2 as in the earlier: they were defending terrain which they not only knew, but which was perfect for the defense. Heavily wooden, hard to pass through, easy to ambush for the defender, hard to catch the ambush and counter it for the attacker, hard to effectively place arty fire for the attacker, snow restricting movement, etc. ---- To make an example of this in CM terms ( ): Step 1: Make a custom map with a company of American rifelmen attacking across "heavy snow" and low visibility on a patch of woods (a square several tiles deep and several tiles wide) held by a platoon German sub machine gunners. Step 2: Deploy the German sub machine gunners inside the woods, so they cannot see outside of it. Step 3: Move both forces towards each other. The German SMG's should move to the edge of the wood patch, leaving fox holes behind as 2ndry positions. Step 4: Watch as the German SMG's shoot up a platoon or two who are trying their hardest wadding through the damn snow. If becoming overpowered by counterfire, retreat to 2ndry positions. Step 5: As the Americans (badly mauled up by the previous encounter) finally reach the woodline, they come in sight of the foxholes and get mauled up even more. Most will rout if done correctly. Step 6: Repeat as necessary as many times as possible. See if you manage to lose this sort of encounter even once. Also see if making the experience level of the attackers higher makes a difference. If done correctly, it doesnt. ---- As you see, it doesnt take much military wit and know how to make use of such convenient natural defenses. One is only to make ambush after ambush, until the enemy is weak enough to finally be counterattacked in turn. If the Finns took part in the attack of the USSR along the Germans, they would have been butchered just as the Germans were. Why? Because the Soviets were now on the defense, among land and terrain they knew. The "mythical Finnish warrior" is mostly based on the fact that the Finns know how to defend terrain which is very well suited for the defense. If my backyard was under attack, I'd know how to defend it better then anyone since I know every foot of my backyard like the back of my hand. That's the whole point. Oh, and please do not make references to the modern Russian army. Underfunded, undertrained, demorilized by just about everything going wrong...its no wonder they are having trouble in Chechnia. Although in fact, despite what some may believe, they are making progress. Killed a Mujihadeen commander recently, they hold most of Chechnia, and made much progress when compared to, say, the last Chechen war. But that's off topic, I appologize.

If the Soviets decided to "invade" Finland in '44, they would have succeeded hands down. The Soviet Army of '44 was a different animal when compared to the Army of the late 30's and early 40's. Lessons were learned, equipment improved, veterans were formed and the troop morale was quite high. The challenge for the Finnish player during any Winter War scenarios would be to take advantage of his higher experienced and better motivated troops. The challenge of the Soviet player would be to make his poorly trained and demorilized hordes overpower and crush the Finnish defenders. It could be done, and was done, for both sides. Unbalancing things by giving one side or the other extra points would just complicate things.

Lala, Just because Soviet troops suffered from poor leadership and training in the Winter War does not warrant giving extra points to Finns. When the Winter War scenarios come around, I still want to have a chance to kill Finns. If they are given extra points as well as having the Soviet troops undertrained and with huge movement/morale/etc penalties, it would be too hard for the Soviet player and quite unrealistic. If anything, the Soviets would get more points since they did have a large numerical advantage. Maximus, That really doesnt mean anything. Finns fought the Soviets after the Winter War. I myself think that it is likely that we will see the Soviet invasion of Finland in CM4.

Makes me wish there are more different building types/slots for building types to me modded on in CM2. As it stands, there are only 2 large building models and it doesnt allow for much creativity :-(

Skipper, You said that the manual you got your illustration from was dated 1940. Do you think it is possible that the Soviets changed their doctrine by then? During 5 years and much experience fighting Germans, I am sure it was possible. Of course, Im just trying to be practical about it. Dont really know when doctrines were introduced or why.

Sorry buddy, but If this ain't getting fixed in this game, I will make sure it is remembered for the next game in the series. Till then.

Nope, this'll remain at the top until it is answered.

If they are anything like the maps that we got from the random battle generator, I know exactly how to get the best score. The keywords (or perhaps keyphrases?) it seems, are "Arty" and "TRP's". This is what the unread and unloved cretin hereafter known as Sock Monkey has done to my troops. Why unloved and unread you ask? Why, the unloved part is clear enough if his playing technique mimicks his behaviour in real life. Allow me to explain: Monkey at Age 7 ---- *Monkey and a younger sibling are sitting at the diner table, their parents nearby. Sibling makes a face in Monkey's direction* Monkey: Die, Biznatch!!! *Monkey proceeds to throw the contents of his plate in never ending heaps that completely bombard and cover his sibling, who is trapped in the confines of the baby feeder chair and cannot escape* ---- ---- Monkey at Age 15 ---- *Sitting in a school cafeteria, a big jockish type feller comes over to Monkey and pours a carton of scalding hot vegetable soup over Monkey's head* Monkey: AAArgh! Die, Biznatch!!! *Monkey then proceeds to toss his own lunch, his bookbag, his notebooks, the 16 pound Chemistry textbook, and a nearby chess club member at the jock in a never ending stream of flying objects. The jock, slipping and tripping on the messy school lunch, is unable to escape the barrage. Unfortunately for Monkey, popular kids usually have friends. So he gets a wedgy so tight he talks funny for a week.* ---- ---- Monkey at Age 19 ---- *Having been invited (probably mistakenly) to a backyard party, Monkey gets down with people who dont know him and take delight in calling him names all the while listening to things people usualy listened to in the 1930's. Monkey escapes the insults by getting wasted on 2 bottles of none-alcoholic beer and throws up a coupl of times. When a next door neightbor complains about the noice level, Monkey goes into a fury* Monkey: Die, Biznatch!!! *Monkey grabs the Bar-B-Q grill, the cooler full of beer, the lawn ornaments, a gorgeous 18 year old cheerleader, and various other objects, throwing them at the neighbor. The neighbor, trapped under the cheerleader's fake breasts, cannot move and is thus bombarded into oblivion by Pink Flamingos and Budweiser bottles. Then Monkey gets the ass kicking of his life by the guys who miss the beer, and then by the guy who got his hot cheerleader girlfriend thrown over at the neightbor. After the dust settled, the cops haul Monkey in the joint where he met his "husband" Big Bubba.* Now, after 71 years, Monkey is finally free but has unfotunately not learned his lesson. As we can plainly see, the only person who really loves Monkey is Bubba. He doesnt count though, since their relationship was largely physical. So I conclude, the unloved bit. And unread? Why, who in heck would ever say "Biznatch"?! C'mon, man, that's so un-l33t :-P This game reminds me of WW1 due to the never ending Arty, rockets, and bits of the civilian population which continuously rain down from the sky. Now, if I could only find a way to reunite Monkey with his soul mate in the slammer, I'd move on to the next round! [ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ] [ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

Babra, Mine didnt fire at all. Redwolf, My FT's were very much alone with their targets. It is too late to use them now, but in the future, I WOULD like this looked at. So I'll keep bloody bumping until BTS responds.

No, Regulars. Must everything be Veteran to be more then 25% efficient? Dont think so.

Actually Michael, I am defending, and thus, had my FT's nice and rested right in front of the buildings. Most of them are Rested. I dont see how a Rested man, in command of a good platoon commander, with full ammo, no one firing at it, etc etc could fail like this. I would understand ONE, but 3 out of 4?!

Ah, the next turn and the one after that. I realise now that Spank my Monkey's theories on warfare mimick that of the US Govt. IE: Drop things on the enemy until they get tired of the loud noices and flashy things and scuttle off. Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately), there are no civilians involved in this wonderful game. If there were, there would be little pieces of them spread around everywhere. Then I could send the photos of the little pieces to the media of Monkey's country force Monkey's civilian population to rally against his tyranical bombing technique, thereby forcing HIM to surrender to ME. IE: BTS, I WANT CIVILIANS!!! DAMN, is this annoying. My men are all weary, the arty is never ending, and now I see signs of his approaching infantry. I do hope that I get a REAL fight soon instead of the "hit and hit and hit and never show up" tactics Monkey has been using for the entirety of this bleedin' game.

An update to the situation (I said this game was ungoing): A THIRD Flamethrower has malfunctioned. OK, Im sorry, but that's just bull$hit :mad: I dont know how complex a mechanism that sprays fuel out of a tube and ignites it can be, but this is just wrong. I could do better with a book of matches and a hair spray can!

Hey BTS and others, In a game Im playing this very moment, I have several German FT teams (the infantry ones, not the halftracks). Now, I order them to target a building and move out. Usually they fire a burst and light up the building and get up and go, thus conserving ammo. I have bough 4 FT's and out of those 4, 2 work flawlessly. They obey command, fire and walk away. A third was not obbeying commands at all. He was standing, with full ammo, in range of a platoon commander, in range of the flame burst - every possible detail was perfect and flawless. Yet, he did not fire and moved out. I have tried to keep him next to the building and not move him - maybe it was the moving part which messed things up I thought. However, the FT STILL did not fire. Another one of my FT teams, the 4th, fired one burst and completed his orders as I desired them. However, when I ordered him to repeat the procedure with another building, he started malfunctioning like the first FT. Now, I dont know. Maybe this is a simulation of the inadequacy of the Flamethrower as a weapon. But 50% malfunctions?! Seems a bit too high! If this is a bug, it is one that is throwing a monkey wrench into my game plan and it would be real nice to avoid this problem in the future. Thanks for listening, Comm.

mPisi, Prepare to be submitted to an all-armor bash! Muahahahah! I kinda hope that I get a tie myself just so I could geta chance to play an all armor game. It get that warm and fuzzy feeling all over when I think about it - err, is that...normal?

Battlefield update: Sock Monkey and I are now on turn 10, and so far the battle has been largely one sided. Basically, Monkey has been pounding me and my boys with more long-range sh@t that you can shake a 155mm Arty shell at. Although my men have managed to reach the flag first, I have taken very heavy casualties. The snow simply kills all fast movement after the first 60 seconds (troops get weary by then). I hope I'm able to last the next 10 turns, since I am guessing due to Monkey's purchase of so much arty, rockets, and tanks, his infantry will not be as strong as mine. Otherwise folks, Im fecked! :eek:

Nope, sorry, this thing ain't going to Page 2

Yes it has. No, it wont make it in. Why? Waaaay too rare. I think there were something like 3 total prototypes, with one actually driven into combat but not getting to fire a single shot even.

*BUMP* My opponent is back, but apparently is all tuckered out from his big E3 adventure, so I'll probably post something cool tommorow. In the meantime, where the hell is everyone? Hello, just cause its the weekends doesn't mean ya'll should get real lives!

Well...the way the AI currently behaves, it would be sort of difficult to learn anything from it. Maybe "how to rush your platoon right into an ambush" and "how to lose a KT to a zook", but nothing actually useful. Then again, that AI controlling part of your force idea would actually be cool! Especially in multiplayer.

Come on people, I wanna hear some AAR's! Entertain us with blow-by-blow battlefield brutality!

The AKoTM post has been gobbled up by the mysterious creature we know only as the "Forum Error", and lost in the bottomless pit we know only as "cyberspace". So I started a new one until Iron Duke checks up on us and sets things right. Alrighty then, ya'll, this crisis should not interfere with your battles. And the fact that E3 has FINALLY ended (I think) should mean SOCK MONKEY should send me my bloody file. SO GET TO IT!!!