Claymore

I'm still one step ahead of the Borg. I have posted to every "Borg" thread and his one good human eye has missed me every time. He must have a problem assimilating us Scots. (either that or assimilating the Scots would significantly impact the Laphroaig and Talisker lubrication plants)

Bump...with a cherry on top?

Ollie stated: "The only reason I brought it up was in reply to Claymore's ranting about it's inefficiency" me rant? hee hee hee HAW HAW HAW I stand by the historical record. When faced with a pillbox that could not reduced with infantry (for numerous reasons) the Amis typically called in 105 M4s. Lacking that they used whatever tank they had handy. I have yet to read in any After Action Report (AARs) of any towed AT/Infantry gun used in the same manner. I would hazard that the unlimbering time and the unprotected nature of a field piece precluded them being used in such a manner. I am sure that the Russians used them in this manner however. E.g. AARs of the 38th Cavalry Recon Squadron from Sept/44 - May/45. The 38th Cavalry faced many Jerries in situations modeled exactly in CM, typically a company of infantry with an attached platoon of tanks and/or tank destroyers. The tanks would lay direct fire on the front of the pillbox both suppressing return fire and eventually knocking out the pillbox. If you read the AARs note that the 105 M4 was called an Assault Gun by the Americans. Also, "A comment to Claymore about the issue of bunkers not destroyed with prep fire: This was what in CM is referred to as a "Target wide" map fire. So there can't have been that many direct hits on any specific pillbox. Try in CM to place a wooden bunker in each corner of a square, about 100m a side, and then call for a "target wide" 105mm mission to the centre of the square and watch how many bunkers get blasted...I can't recall any photographs from D-day showing the bunkers surrounded with craters from near misses, as would have been the result of directly aimed fire." I don't have the American Forces in Action "UTAH BEACH TO CHERBOURG, 6­27 JUNE 1944" on my desk today. If I did I could scan a photograph of the forts at Crisbeq (very poor spelling attempt) showing craters from naval gunnery. The craters are on the same order of size as the pillboxes themselves although the gunnery did not knock them out. From memory I would say the top lip was at least 10m across. Let me bring my book from home tomorrow and scan the photograph. Send me your email address and I will post the photo to you. or If someone give me instructions on how to post photos to the CM forum, I will do so here. The forts were in direct LOS of the Utah beach and targeted DIRECTLY by naval vessels. It doesn't say where the FOs were when this was happening. Since it is not part of the written record I will not guess where they were.

Say any of you cool mod guys feel like pointing me to a mapping of the BMP files to CM objects. e.g. BMP #231 = rubble? Thanks

My mamma told me never to assimilate on the first date, while my daddy told me to get whatever I could, when I could But here I've been dating the CM Forum for months now and the Borg just won't put out... The CM Borg is just a tease...

Philistine posted "Could you post the reference? ...snip" Gladly. The best three (and at hand for exact title/ref) are: "UTAH BEACH TO CHERBOURG, 6­27 JUNE 1944 (1947, facsimile reprint 1984, 1990, 1994; 213 pp., illustrations, maps, appendixes). CMH Pub 100-12, paper, GPO S/N 008-029-00129-2 A companion volume to Omaha Beachhead, this narrative rounds out the account of the landings at corps level and below and relates the course of VII Corps combat operations which resulted in the capture of Cherbourg on 27 June 1944." OMAHA BEACHHEAD (1945, facsimile reprint 1984, 1989, 1994; 167 pp., illustrations, maps, annexes). CMH Pub 100-11, paper, GPO S/N 008-029-00128-4, An operational account of a major phase of the campaign in Normandy between 6 and 13 June 1944. ST-LO (1946, facsimile reprint 1984, 1994; 128 pp., illustrations, maps). CMH Pub 100-13, paper, GPO S/N 008-029-00127-6, The operations of a single corps in the First Army's offensive during the first three weeks of July 1944 designed to deepen the lodgment area preparatory to the breakout from Normandy. Many more available upon request. Cheers

Ollie, Re your comment: "This seems wrong!...IMO" It is evident that your critique of the effect of plunging fire from 14+" artillery is based solely on your "feelings". The historical record is clear on the effect of plunging fire on the concrete bunkers/strong points during WWII. Plunging naval gunnery during the Overlord and post-Overlord advance to Cherbourg DID NOT KNOCK OUT A SINGLE concrete bunker according to my references (available upon request). CM modeling of artillery vs pillboxes DOES NOT require any fixes/patches.

In my CM game experience, Arty spotters are difficult (almost impossible) to identify if employed properly. Proper employment should be 200+ metres back of your main forces in a concealed location which gives good LOS. Employed within 200 metres of OPFOR and you risk greatly having them targeted. In my reading/research I come across numerous pictures of FOs. The most notable characteristic that OPFOR could key off is the amount of radio equipment the FOs carry. To first order, the amount/size of radio equipment grows directly with the size arty. An organic 81mm FO requires only a handi-talkie, whereas going up the battalion, divisional, corps ladder requires substaintial more kit. I will try and dig up a picture for those interested. Perhaps the only mod for CM IMO would be a graded scale of visiblity for FOs, with company (divisional) level arty being the least (most) visible. Cheers

Bump... Reviewing my sources (e.g. American Forces in Action Series) the performance of large caliber naval artillery on concrete strongpoints was poor. There were numerous strongpoints in and around the Normandy beaches and the advance to Cherbourg that were deluged with 14+" artillery. Plunging fire seemed to do little to knock out the emplacements or cause the inferior quality troops manning them to surrender. Without exception the strongpoints had to be reduced with infantry in close combat using satchel charges and flamethrowers. How these emplacements compare to those modeled in CM is a fair question. But to me, I am very interested in modeling the Allies attempts to reduce the peninsular forts and the effectivness of plunging fire is correctly modeled in my opinion. Now, on the beaches themselves the high-velocity med caliber naval artillery was far more effective in taking out strongpoints. Without a doubt this was caused by firing slit penetrations not by side-wall penetrations. CMBO does not model this behaviour correctly, unless simulated with direct fire from tanks or on board artillery pieces. HOWEVER, CMBO clearly states that it deals with actions AWAY from the beachead and I do not find anything worth patching/fixing in this case. (References and correct spellings available upon request)

Phoenix, I think the word for that is "pucker" Pucker(v): anatomical action performed by an individual's alimentary canal when he/she is about to be blown into small pieces. As in "As the KT crested the hill my sphincter began a rapid cycle of puckering and unpuckering" Note: Hamsters and all uber-rodents are immune to the puckering effect.

I have had just this happen to me on many occasions and I set up some custom scenarios to test various methods of bagging the big boys. The result: Since most columns or groups "move rate" and the CM turn length means that you will likely have at least two turns to pop shots at the high value targets. Place the zook or Shrek team's ambush marker as far from the expected enemy route of advance as possible. This ensures the max probability of your team sitting still while the forward elements advance past their position. Then in the second round (if they haven't been discovered) target whoever you choose. The results are of course highly variable, like any combat. Roads are the most difficult to interdict since the movement rates are greater. TacOps like SOPs are preferable in my opinion.

Another Quick Question The brief unit discription included in CM obviously denotes when a unit has an exceptional ROF e.g. Hertzer = slow. What is the nominal ROF for an AC and how does it depend upon experience level? (specific not general obviously) How do the exceptional (slow/fast ROF) discriptions alter the ROF? (specific not general obviously) Thanks and Cheers

I had a problem with just that my last PBEM turn. My German AC (Veteran-20mm) had an ambush point at max distance. The expected enemy HT came out from behind some trees about 300m beyond the ambush point but about 10 degrees off the axis of my AC to Ambush line. Result: No ambush and now the AC has to back up and track down that pesky HT.

Thanks ...end thread...

I Second the motion... Tank Hunters regularly set up to interdict an enemy's line of advance or choke points from distances far in excess of 200m. Good thread...and one that has been on my mind for some time now...

Quick question (Disclaimer: the answer to which I am currently blind to if it exists in the manual or previous thread) Is the BLAST value assigned to AAA from the entire burst or is it multiplied by the #rounds/burst?

My reply is of course "Hurry up u muther!, I'm clushing your head, I'm clushing your head" Just jok'in Fogman

Henri Point 1. Our restart in 1.04 did indeed give me back my Priest but it did negate the incredible 50cals 1.03 had. Who has the advantage? Point 2. On a large map (like ours) with many relief changes and VLs strung out over the whole length of the map a rapid advance means very little. Most VLs do not command the entire or even other VLs. A player may rush to occupy the VL only to find that the nearby hill should have been the target instead. Or if the player rushes to take the hill, he finds that this position only commands a small portion of the map and he must have a good plan how to crush his opponent. I agree that on small maps (like our first) where there are limited assets a rush may engender a victory. But in 2000+ pt games the loss of a single armoured asset or FO is not the game. Indeed even on small games that is not the case (See Wed Morning AAR on the Forum). Here I was down to only a HT and an Ostwind against 2 Shermans. Very poor odds. [sillyness Alert] - Yet through my superior intellect and tactical genius I triumphed over my poor sock-puppet opponent. Yea he who walks through the valley of my death bringers shall fear his own shadow. [End Sillyness Alert] You have death awaiting you again my friend. Beware and be afraid.... ------------------ he which maketh the first assault doth endanger himselfe most (sometimes)

Ok...I usually don't like to post AARs but this is a beautiful Wed. morning. From the very jaws of defeat the vaterland snatches a probable victory! Setup: Major Players 3 PLTNs infantry 1 Panther 1 Ostwind 1 251/9 1 250/8 (75mm HT) In the opening phases of the combat I catch a full platoon of Amis advancing across an open stretch of land. The FOs call in two volleys of 81mm and soon the scattered remnants are clutching their dying comrades and calling for mother. My 251/9 advances to a probable hull-down position to give the coup-de-gras when an unseen Greyhound kills it (1.03 so it was the 37mm or the 50cal). No matter I think I have a PShrek in ambush and a Platoon in fine cover about 150m distant securing my left flank. If the Greyhound advances any further he will be dead. In the center of my lines, 2 platoons go to ground and set up a firing sack for any Amis who advance towards the VL. The Ostwind pulls into a central location to support the coming metal storm. My Panther sets up hull-down in the centre of my lines drawing a bead on an advancing 76 Sherman. On my right flank the 250/8 scurries to cover at the bottom of a hill, behind a house. If things go as planned he can crest the hill in a couple of minutes and pour 75mm on the remaining Amis. Next phase: The Greyhound advances to a point just outside the trip level of the ambush and...pastes the unlucky PShrek. Next phase: Ok...I'll run my centre PShrek over to the left flank and get that Greyhound! The Panther waits for the Sherman. Next phase: Disaster! The panther fires on the Sherman and gets a non-fatal turret penetration. The return fire from the Sherman bounces off the Panther turret face. Then...a second unseen sherman to the left of the panther puts a 76AP round through the side turret armour. The catastrophic explosion kills the entire crew and leaves a burning hulk in the middle of my lines. That hulk is the first thing I see everytime I load the following PBEM rounds. On my left flank the Greyhound has swung almost behind my lines. It is even money (bad odds) if he will kill the Ostwind. The weary PShrek that ran to cover the Greyhound from my centre misses his first and only shot (from 50m) and is summarily pasted by the Greyhound. Now I have only the PFausts carried by the infantry, the Ostwind (poor), and the 250/8 (poor) to deal with two Shermans. Next Phase: Realizing the Ostwind needs a flank or rear shot on the Shermans for a kill I order him to get the hell-out-of-Frankfurt and swing around in a 3/4 map arc around my right flank where he and the 250/8 can co-ordinate (slim chance) an attack on the side of the Shermans. On a good note, the Greyhound gets a little too frisky with my left flank infantry and gets a catastrophic hit with a PFaust from 60m. Boom! The critical point is that there are no crew survivors so hopefully he is not going to see the Ostwind pull out and start his big hay-maker to right. Next phase: Artillery starts falling on my 2 platoons and from his targetting I obviously need to move them around. Moving while under fire is not good and I lose one squad while another panics and runs. His infantry start their big push towards the center again and I don't have anything to stop them. I ask my 81mm FOs to target the forest VL which he will likely occupy by the time it arrives. His shermans pour on the 76mm HE (better for me by far than 75mm HE) Next phase: His rightmost Sherman (the Panther killer) inches forward to get a better angle on my infantry. Now I've lost another squad and a HMG. The Ostwind is almost in position. Next phase: My repositioned infantry and sacrificed HMG has slowed his advance slightly. I obviously will lose this battle if the hay-maker goes astray. The best I am hoping for us to trade one asset a piece. Then he has more than enough assets left to paste my remaining infantry and hunt down the surviving HT or Ostwind. Next phase: Now or Never -- I set up the HAY_MAKER with the 250/8 hopefully cresting the hill at the same time as the Ostwind. They will each target a single Sherman. Unfortunately though it's time for me to run some errands and I email the movement orders off to my opponent. I preface the file with the message "Oooh boy....can't wait for the sparks to fly! Got 20min before I leave. If you can bounce the movie back before I go I would sleep easier " NO JOY I must leave before the movie gets back and I replay the God-damn movements in my head all night. You know -- maybe I should have added a pause or moved that hunt a little to the right. Well...It's Wednesday morning and ain't it a beautiful day. Liefembrach (sp) all around kamarades! I check my morning mail and there is the most phenomenal sight you have ever seen. The Ostwind pulls up and after three bursts of 37mm kills the "Panther Killer" while the 250/8 digs its first 2 rounds into the earth and puts the third straight though the other Sherman. The 81mm from 2 FOs are now arriving on the Amis infantry. I AM GOING TO PLAY THIS MOVIE EVERY MORNING FOR THE NEXT MONTH! Anyone want to see it? I am the GOD of tactics! (fist pumping etc...) Gawd I love this game.

Well ya see I'm originally from the Detroit area and my wife's family are both well-off and gun collectors. My uncle-in-law (who lives next to Aretha Franklin) owns a tool and die shop and is the principle gun fool. He owns a number of weapons including the aformentioned 20mm. I have a picture of my sister-in-law firing the 20mm from the back of his pickup down in Kentucky. (I can scan it and send it if asked) There is a site (Knob Hill) which 4-6 times/year has people from all over come with their guns/cannon/tanks and brew up all manner of junk. I have seen a triple mount of 7.62miniguns, a 20mm vulcan, numerous M2, MG42 and 1917s. There was also an appearance of a functional M5 Stuart at one gathering. Mon Uncle currently has a 88mm in his shop. He purchased one from Europe but did not have the rubber bits (degraded) so he arranged a trade with the Patton museum for theirs. He gave them a Ladi (?sp?) (20mm anti-tank rifle) for the rubber bits. Cheers

The setup - an Ostwind(37mm) is to the side or rear of an M4, about 200m distant. I command the unit to bring the Sherman under fire, knowing that a hull hit can kill the M4. The result - what appears to hit distribution based upon the relative side and rear areas (i.e. between the turret/upper hull/lower hull) Question - I cannot search up the manner in which CM models hits on armoured targets. Does CM first calculate whether a hit has occured and then base the location on the ratio of area visible to LOS? Shouldn't the Ostwind etc... aim for the vulnerable areas? Suggestion - Heat-of-battle not withstanding, the shot fall should be weighted towards were a unit would be aiming. Factoid - I have fired the German 20mm FLACK cannon (from the back of a pickup!) and with the iron site had no problem hitting a 2 foot bullseye from 200-300m.

Cheers to Charles! I have tested the same custom scenarios that had previously demonstrated the uncanny accuracy of the M2 under the 1.04 patch. Results show that German HT are now a reasonable personnel transport vehicle at ranges >200m. If you run them any closer the 50s will rightly chew you up. Pumas and associated ACs have proportional resistance. Once again: Thanks Charles!

We need to start a new survey on those CM addicts/converts who have not had a close encounter with the CM-Borg. Maybe a single listing can be made to make the poor machine/organic's job a little easier. Cheers

Preamble: The manual state that the generic unit markers may represent "units that are completely out of sight" and gives the example of units that have "retreated away" Question: Can a generic unit marker be shown on-screen yet the unit it supposedly represents is not there? To put it another way - Is there the possiblility of false generic unit markers being shown? ------------------ he which maketh the first assault doth endanger himselfe most (sometimes)

GIJim: I am not a historian by trade, meerly a game playing physicist GNorwood: WOW. There's two of us? Amazing! No....there's three of us. That's enough to start a CM addiction help group for physicists Damn! all this proposal writing is getting in the way of CM. Do ya think the NSF is interested in supporting some gaming...I mean modeling... of WWII small unit tactics?