Tanaka

Marlow, As you know, Axis and Allies late in the war had 2 distinct policies regarding airborne troops. This was in part due to the role of each one, one offensive (allies) and the other defensive (Axis). (there was more into it for the axis part, remember Crete, no air superiority) The intention behind the airborne assaults on both those operations, D-Day and Market Garden was for the airborne troops to secure strategic positions behind enemy lines that would make the enemy defeat faster and easier. The original idea was for them to be relived once the regular army catches up with them. The truce is that into a certain extent no plan survives contact (Rommel) and airborne troops often find them selves fighting beyond what was “programmed”. Now, this is a meter of opinion, but I still don’t see evidence of common practice in airborne and armor AFV conjunct attacks (yes, in front of the army by land attacking and assaulting). At least on the link you provide, there are more examples of them fighting without AFVs (I see AFV attachments, but the large majority of them for defensive roles) On the Ardennes another well known operation, the airborne units were couth in the middle of the fight and in defensive positions on zones were heavy enemy activity wasn’t expected. For the Germans the all business is rather different, as the FJ had their own vehicles assigned to them, wish by the way is modeled in CM, players that want more AFV choice and somehow justify the Tigers, normally go to the Ardennes operation for source of “inspiration”… right when Hitler was hand picking the forces, mixing them, scraping the bottom of the barrel and destroying the German Army (wish he was doing for quite some time). I’m doing another long post errrrrr… I will try to make it shorter. The fact is that it does not meter if it was a less common practice or an uncommon one…The truce behind it is simple, players o "sherry peak" the best of each army branch are for sure trying to get that special advantage that would make them win the game “at all costs no meter what”. Taking, in my view, a little bit too far, the already “unreal” troop “buying” method… (we want CMBB…we have mature ) Notice I’m not losing sleep over this, for me this is a lesser offense, distant go the days where I was playing a QB, and “stupid” has I am I bought only inside the Heer… (as I still do, only one army branch) So, just to finish will tell that story… A strong Heer task force of motorized Pz grenadiers Coy (2 I think) with AFV support …the fight went on until after some small skirmish I found out my adversary was fighting with glider troops (USA airborne)… and I thought … well, glider troops are good at close and have no AFV (they just cant glider/parachute them) :cool: … So, what I did was: 1-Regularly opened fire at long distances (making use of those rifles) 2-Let my AFV move freely and without much care (only outside zook range) supporting and opening fire whenever needed. Of course all of you know what will happen in the next turns… my “well intentioned” adversary “poped” up a few rifle 45 platoons with 3 AFV support… and my mouth went to the floor :eek: yes, I lost PS- Every one does mistakes, when I started playing pbem … I was mean… GJ+AFV mix until some good hearted soul showed me the “light” and passed me to the dark side of the force (yes, dark…we all sow the star wars only because of the style of the guy, yes, the asthmatic one ). [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

Thin Red Line, On a 800 pts defense battle your opponent has the option of buying a Infantry Coy plus a gun Platoon ( I mean with this 4 to 5 guns) and an AFV wish is acceptable for a defense with this pts . If didn’t buy the AFV, he can somehow exchange it by another gun platoon (doing a total of 8 to 10 guns). He could do this rather inexpensively (its called not putting all eggs in the same basket) with 20mm flack guns, 75mm Inf Guns or yet the 88mm rocket (pp) … making a mix of 1x Coy infantry +2x Gun platoon, wish is a good fighting force for a non flexible and a bit AT oriented defense. Now, you ask, weren’t 88mm rockets rare? Or, is this an abnormal gun concentration? The answer to both these questions is probably yes, but from there to calling it ”gamey” is perhaps too much. His defense had big defects (artillery/HE oriented attack would finish him) and if in advance you knew about them, or even during the battle, you would then, do much better… What he just did it was to surprise you, the element of surprise is ½ battle won… and many players after being surprised fill that somehow the other player was “above” the rules (using them in his favor). Then go and try X rule or Y rule, and each time some ones exits from this expected beaver, they try to make a new rule. For me these special rules only make the game tedious, as somehow it shortens the options to much… With time, one basically learns to choose a combat force for a certain terrain type wish has the flexibility to endure combat against all kind of force mix and still have a chance of doing ok. With CMBB, all this talk will be very different, because there will be the option of a point system based on a rarity rule, making the 88mm rocket or any other kind of rare gun not worthy of buying (It is just an example) For a start I don’t refuse an adversary for a first game. I myself I’ve the personal rule of not doing to the others what I don’t like them to do to me. So for instances, I don’t like force mix (army brunch and Nationality), don’t like recon by death (2” mortar/zook/lmg in front), don’t like people who use game limitations (like the soft vehicles problem)… Also, I don’t have nothing against any kind of armored vehicle, every one of them in CM has its draw back, ones with bigger and other with smaller ones, but no one is the ultimate super weapon. Notice that I don’t tell my adversaries that I expected these…every one is entitled to be as he likes (this is only a game), but you can be sure that there are the ones I still talk after more then a year I had played with them. Has I’ve more then 130 CM pbem/tcpip games played, I know how to see when I’m in front of a “newbie” or a “power gamer”… If it is a “newbie” I try to bring him to the “dark” side of the grognards unspoken rules (“what you shouldn’t do to your adversary in 10 lessons”), on the other hand if it is a power player I just say “thanks for the game” (read until never) and type is e-mail on a little note book I have on left side of my computer. On so many players of CM, it’s natural that some are incompatible… If you are the historical player type or just like it play historical some times, try the CM-meta campaign at http://www.combatmission.com/ , it is very challenging and puts you doing your best with what you have available and not whatever force you chose to “buy”. As for the game limitation regarding soft vehicles, try this topic http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016215 ..another long post, hmmm...I'm in "typing mode" today

Charlie Rock, In those options, I would go for argument 3... let me elaborate. Yes, light flack elements were used on the front line and notice I’m excluding the 88mm in this argument… Due to the nature of the combat that the Germans were involved in Normandy and after it, mainly defensive/counteroffensive role, flack guns (20mm and 37mm) would be part of the defense line, and I’m not talking about 1 or 2 guns… Lets take as an example the 21st Panzer Division, who around this time took part in combat around Caen, in its organization you can see that each Pz Grenadier Rgt would have more or less a light flak gun platoon attached (4 to 5 guns). I can assure you these guns were integrated part of the defense, and not guarding some HQ like in Hollywood movies, these are Rgt guns and not army (or any higher then Div HQ) guns, wish, if possible, would be deployed near strategic targets like bridges in order to prevent low level Jabo attack. The Germans knew very well what the 20mm/37mm flack guns were capable of doing to light armored and also infantry in static positions (like houses for instances), in order to confirm this, you only need to check the ammo made for these guns. I don’t want (and it isn’t) to transform this post in a “exception make the rule” kind of post that players who like to mix airborne troops with tanks do (or any other kind of nationality mix). The argument of those people normally go somewhere near this line,” On the day X that airborne BN attacked with AFV support in that place”, so I can use this whenever I feel like it. My post intetion is not any where near that, this is not 1 or 2 examples, this was common practice… you can see this by any other Normandy divisions, like 346th Infantry Div for instances. During this time (and now) the prime AA defense for AFVs would be its camouflage (vegetation), and not some sort of AA attack/defense… Ok, any AA will make de live difficult for the attacking plane, but if the AFV is not spotted from the sky (very easy), there will be no attack. Also remember that the Jabo attack on call, style 60’s 70’s, didn’t exist in considerable numbers on the 2nd WW. Another different business, but not unconnected, that somehow shows this theory, is the high number of light armored vehicle based on the 20mm and 37 mm guns the Germans had and used in recon and fast support missions. Notice that I’m not defending the “gamey” use of this or any other weapon, I’m just trying to state/demonstrate what the reality might have been… Any abnormal concentration of a specific asset would be sporadic and considered “gamey” if used regularly. For instance, if I play the game on a company level (1000 to 2000 pts), as in my opinion it should be played, you shouldn’t find more then 4/5 of this guns on defense side, any more and that can be considered “gamey”. Also notice I’m not including in the argument the unarmored AA vehicles, wish are currently poorly model in CM… with those, it’s my advice, just don’t use them completely if possible. To complete this already long post, sorry about that, I would state, that if you obey some elementary “friendly” QB conduct rules no problems should arise. In likes of… on advance role battles (attack/assault/probe/ME), for every gun you take, a vehicle capable of transport that same gun as to be bought (even if you don’t use it). (For defense obviously this is not needed).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Charlie Rock: I think it's extremely gamey. While the Americans can be forgiven for using quad .50s occaisionally (which they can't have), German AA were more than challenged taking care of the US airpower. It would have made more sense and been more economical to use them to protect tank concemtrations, FA units, etc. then park them in the front line to repel infantry. I understand the 88mm role, but if you lose your 20mm and 37mm you have no airpower support, and you'll lose all your supporting arms even faster.<hr></blockquote> Go here, read some OB... http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/index.html ...then come back and comment your post

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas: ... I'd go along with the Mongols being the most efficient army in history. <hr></blockquote> Short and simple... I 2nd that As for you Argie...an army of 5200 rebels ? …You new world guys... I could point here some true good moves made by the Vietnamese since the 50's until the 70's.... but giving the nature and the place of this forum.... I better not

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: ...Mmmmm, was Rommel still in charge of the Panzer Armee Afrika (as it was renamed) at that point? Personally, I also believe Rommel's reputation is also blown all out of proportion. IMO, he was faced for the most part, fairly mediocre British commanders, and poorly equipped/led units... <hr></blockquote> On the 15th of Mar Rommel went way, leaving Messe the command of the PAA ... ...one of the best tactical maneuvers of the N African Campaign (there were many) was the Rommel's Retreat at El-Alamein after is return to the battle in November. What a move... Hitler delayed the retreat, asking for the suiside of the army, how could the DAK escape in the desert without air superiority and in the middle of the battle with such odds (1:3 ? or more ? ) ? It's true he commanded exceptional soldiers (in likes of the Ramcke FJ), but one can never survive to be a good soldier when badly commanded This last part is for you, “recon by dead” CM commanders ! … I just remember another one I can’t resist typing about… the fake tanks (VWs) mixed with the real ones that battle Gambiers 2nd Armor Div near Nofilia in 41 early in the DAK campaign As for the IS 85 and 122… sorry for hijacking the topic, but really there is not much technically to add, as always your posts deal with facts, and against facts arguments wont do J … I personally can’t produce any revoking facts…so what you typed seam very plausible as usual

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by The Commissar: Now, once again, I am no expert in on the Afrika Korps (and I so do hate intruding on topics I am not completely in tune with), but wasn't the Korps in a state of disrepair and severe neglect when it came to supplies? Was El Guitar during or after the siege of El Alamein (sp?)? Im tempted to think after, when the British pushed the Afrika Korps back to where they started. This would mean that the "poor" Germans were in a very tight spot. Even Rommels skills could not make tanks lacking the necessary fuel start moving.<hr></blockquote> ...and don't forget, even before El Alamein, the Allies had broken both German and Italian N African codes... so they knew every step the Fox would give, even before it moves Does any one remember Kasserine and the 1st Armor Div ? How it ended ? Who was the commander of the 7th Army ?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by V: Anyone who runs is a Nazi. Anyone who stands still, is a well disciplined Nazi... (stolen from Full Metal jacket)<hr></blockquote> Yes, good movie and also a good sound track ... I still can remember many dialogs on that one Also in the Westland but after that line, it sounded more or less like this: (Reporter)- Any women and children ? (Gunner)- Yes (Rep.)- How can you do it ? (Gun.)- Just don't aim it so forward ! (it, the heli-cannon) (Rep.)- ! (Gun.)- Isn't war hell ? ahh, hahahaha That movie is not a very “real” one, but it had a lot and I mean a lot of “good” lines…

Hi,I go away a few days, come back, and find this... ICS… When a few months ago you arrived at this forum, you typed a sort of compact text without punctuation, capital letters and spaces between issues in your posts. Then slowly you started moving in the “right” direction… points here, a few commas there… then come the spaces between issues, and finely the last addiction, capital letters. As you can see, you are slowly moving back to typing form… in my humble opinion, the last few steps you need, are more related to the content of your posts then with the cosmetics of them. This last step is the hardest, as it requires another part of your brain, one you clearly seem not being using for a longer time then the repetition one. I will give you some aid in this important and hard last step… Try reducing the number of posts for a start, the idea his for you to post less, but with more quality. Now, on a more personal level… As said in one of my old posts on another topic, I’m also a part time shrink… yes, it was a correspondence course offered in a morning cereals promotion, but it does wonders some times. I can feel by your posts a troubled young man not wanting to leave childhood … The adult live, as its advantages/disadvantages, but more important, also brings the responsibility to a new and much higher level. Some individuals take more time then others to do this last but not least important step, others never give it… So the important is that you actually give the step, not before you complete the childhood, but some time on the end of it. Judging by your age, 24, you seem to me as being about a good time on doing it, a little bit longer and you could rotten like a mature fruit, don’t be afraid, billions of mammals of your specie have done this before you. If you have difficulties, I would advice a contact with the female branch of our specie… women are very good in taking dumbness out of the males. On the first contact, don’t be afraid, women are different, but they don’t bite… like the males, they just want a piece of the action. If all goes wrong, (it can happen some times), don’t give up, just keep trying… or yet, look for some professional advice with any college of mine (one that preferentially doesn’t had take his degree on cereals), you will see that live as it’s stages, time doesn’t go back and there is no point in staying in one of them. PS- New Year is about… perhaps a New Year resolution, who knows …

One interesting thing, is how the Panzer III equipped with the long 50 mm gun (50L60), was successful and famous with the DAK. On the other end, it was somehow unsuccessful and infamous in the Eastern front, where the 75L48 of the Panzer IV did better. This can suggest that the 50L60 had too much work with the sloped armor of the T-34 and not with the typical more vertical USA/UK armor.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mattias: As an interesting side note the 50mm high performance ammunition (PzGr 40) was notorious for case expansion. After the round was fired the empty shell case would stick in the chamber. Cross your fingers and fire M.<hr></blockquote> lol I hope we can have this kind of fun in CMBB ...maybe it is too particular, but the "jamming" probability could go up... if there is "jamming" for guns in CMBB.

Well guys, I tryed, Argie tryed...any one wants to continue ? Thanks in advance :cool:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: Christie did have a huge hand in making the Soviets want for an all terrain "fast tank" possible thru his suspension though. So, in playing a huge part in the easrly develpopements of the BT's, he in turn by defualt played just as big of a role in the making of the T-34. The T-34 was a direct decendent of thr BT series tanks.<hr></blockquote> Instead of producing fast and imprecise generalizations, go here http://history.vif2.ru/index.html , for a better education in this field (look inside tank developement) [ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer: ... Add the shot trap and the achilles' heel side armor and you've got an expensive box of steel with 'shoot me' written all over it.<hr></blockquote> We were talking about design/beauty, but if you insist, lets go down that road then... :cool: Indeed, early Panther models had a shot trap, and yes, the side armor in any Panther is weak for post 43 tank standards,but... you are forgetting the main issue! Wish is... even today the tanks are not supposed to give their broadside to the enemy, like a 1st/2nd WW Battleship (they can go on that position if they are pretty sure there will not be incoming fire, like when outside enemy effective AT range… and/or they are limited by the terrain, like when positioned on steep hillsides) So, in short, if used well, the Panther was a more then capable weapon platform... As a meter of fact, the same is true for any other weapon/gun/vehicle In other words, it's the crew with full knowledge of the vehicle/gun/weapon real capabilities together with a good train that will make any machine proficient at its work. [ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

CMPlayer Interests: Anglo Saxon … Posted 12-23-2001 03:56 AM The three reasons I like American infantry over all other nationalities: -chewing gum -funny accent -they're the good guys Poste 12-24-2001 04:26 AM Why hasn't anyone mentioned the truly ugly German King Tiger? Shermans look pretty racy compared to that overgrown boxy lump. Poste 12-24-2001 03:19 PM Oh gimme a break. German armor is just plain boring looking. It lacks character. I'd take a Challenger any day of the week for pugnacious, bulldog-like grit. Poste 12-24-2001 03:37 PM Not only are Panthers ugly, but they are lousy tanks as well Man… you are on a crusade ! It’s only a game, relax, they are just e- on your screen, and by the way, I also don’t think there are any neo-Nazis playing this game (they just don’t have the brain for it…), so there is no need to waist your time with such empty arguments I may even agree with the Challenger, it's an ok design, never the less it's to straight like the Tiger I... I know taste is taste, but the Panther is ugly ?!?… The best WW2 tank DESIGN of the war…and you say it is ugly ?!? :eek: Come on, talk to us, tell us the truth… When you were little you were going to the school and this big, bad Panther came to you and said: ”Give me your lunch !…or else ! “. Since then, it has never been the same, you fight all over the NET for the Anglo-Saxon tank lobby PS- Specially when CMBB comes out, I’m eagerly waiting for your opinion on the USSR Armor… (T-34/85 the best “all around” tank of the war and the kind…)

BTS doesn't make laws, just lives with them... Any way, there are "real" nazy flag mods for download, so, if the player wants them, it can have them :cool: If you are loking for a political answer, I would advice, the general forum

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fieldmarshall: ...Also, those stupid kraut hypocrites, the next replacement for the swastika is displayed below: <hr></blockquote> I'm not a 1st language English speaker... but, after reading your post a few times I'm trying very hard to see something ok with it... and I can't. I'm not sure what your are trying to say/want or wish to explain... but try put your own country/state flag on it, and you will see how I feel [ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

Enemy crews used in an active role, only give me points... The scoring system in CM "invites" the players to not use crews in risky tasks. So, I really don't see any problems with crews in CM.

Both of them nice players... it will be a close one

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: ... can you play ip games agaisnt oppononets as well?<hr></blockquote> Yes

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by argie: Hi! I'm fine. Thanks! No, wasn't with me, was against me you saw it BTW, I have played games against them and killed them without troubles. With the proper tactics, they are as vulnerable as any Panther <hr></blockquote> Yes, I too have learned how to avoid/fight this kind of soft vehicles... The funny part is that, after so many written topics about this in the forum, they will show up again and again... Even after some "donky" provided a link to a full 3 pages "fair" topic about the problem Just between us... Eu sei, eu sei... para sempre Malvinas Argentinas :cool:

I don't know if read this one, but any way, I think you will find what you are loking for in here http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016215 Hi Argie... How are you doing ? Hope well, been a long time By the way, wasn't with you I 1st sow this problem... [ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

Hi, welcome... Start here for mods http://www.combatmission.com/ it's realy just a question of your taste... Then go here for scenarios http://www.derkessel.de/ ,there are many other good CM web pages...just look into the links of both these pages. ...By the way, if you want to easy find human oponents for PBEM or TCPIP games, maybe you can also be interested in these ladders: http://www.rugged-defense.nl/ and http://tournamenthouse.com/ , again there are others... [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

I take as many guns as I like... but, if I'm on offensive, or yet in a meeting engagement, for every gun I take, I take a vehicle capable of transporting it... Even if I don't intend to use it. PS-I'm in both of those ladders by the way...

ftp://ftp.combatmission.com/gordon/CMMOSv2_01.exe